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Misinformation and Misreporting in the Quran
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

David wrote:
Fathom wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
  And Roman historical records totally unrelated to the religion of Christianity confirm what the Quran says; it wasn't the Jews, it was the Romans.

You've been slam dunked by your own Quran.[/b]


Where are those Roman historical records? There is nothing recorded in the history about that crucifiction. Zish, nada, nothing. A few lines from Tacitus do not mean the history. You need historians.

It is all scriptural gossip.
 Laughing


I suppose I will need to once again tell you that Cornelius Tacitus was an elite Roman Historian? It's all been explained to you already, and you have not provided any type of argument with any type of evidential support.

Therefore, you have no means whatsoever to refute my point. You have nothing except your own opinion.


It is worse than that.  No matter how much evidence we present to the contrary, Muslims MUST believe that Jesus did not die on the cross.

If they for one moment believe that He did, then they will have to consider that the Christians are right and they cannot afford to do that.


Yes, I know. I am an x-Muslim, so I understand their dilemma. No matter how much evidence is provided, they MUST deny the truth at all costs.

Any religion that forces anyone to deny the truth is a false religion.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
Yes, I know. I am an x-Muslim, so I understand their dilemma. No matter how much evidence is provided, they MUST deny the truth at all costs.


stop lying you freak

you were never a muslim to be an ex muslim

why don't you come out of your religious closet you coward and tell all that you are a christian who is hiding his faith so you don't get embarrassed with the amount of BS in the corrupt bible

now tell me, you said you are an ex christian as well, why don't you tell us how christianity is a false religion?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
Yes, I know. I am an x-Muslim, so I understand their dilemma. No matter how much evidence is provided, they MUST deny the truth at all costs.


stop lying you freak

you were never a muslim to be an ex muslim

why don't you come out of your religious closet you coward and tell all that you are a christian who is hiding his faith so you don't get embarrassed with the amount of BS in the corrupt bible

now tell me, you said you are an ex christian as well, why don't you tell us how christianity is a false religion?

My nose..I think I am going to sneeze Ah.. Ah.. Achucoque...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Ahmed

You know that I am a unmistakable NONbeliever !

And I wouldn't step up mayn times to defend Christians...

But HISTORY is something else, has nothing to do with "belief" !

Your Quran tells a completely different story about "Jesus", tell me WHY we should rather believe the Quran, and dump those historical reports, evidences... ?

Wouldn't you also believe, that these guys, unbiased against a nonexistent islam, wrote the truth ?

And WHY not ?

Here's the quotes...

Quote:

Acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Savior is a matter of faith, but recognizing Jesus' earthly existence is a matter of historical record:


Josephus, Jewish Antiqities (english) (18,63)

SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME,

[63] Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.



Josephus, Jewish Antiquities (english) 20, 200

CONCERNING ALBINUS UNDER WHOSE PROCURATORSHIP JAMES WAS SLAIN; AS ALSO WHAT EDIFICES WERE BUILT BY AGRIPPA.

[197] AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, 1 who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent.



Mara bar Sarapion (see page 21-22)

"What good did it do the Athenians to kill Socrates, for which deed they were punished with famine and pestilence? What did it avail the Samians to burn Pythagoras, since their country was entirely buried under sand in one moment? Or what did it avail the Jews to kill their wise king , since their kingdom was taken away from them from that time on?

God justly avenged these three wise men. The Athenians died of famine, the Samians were flooded by the sea, the Jews were slaughtered and driven from their kingdom, everywhere living in the dispersion.

Socrates is not dead, thanks to Plato; nor Pythagoras, because of Hera's statue. Nor is the wise king, because of the new law he has given."

John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew (New York: Doubleday, 1991), 1:25.

(this letter is supposedly in the British Museum)



Pliny, Governor of Bithynia: Letter to the Emperor Trajan

...These first said they were Christians, then denied it, insisting they had been, "but were so no longer"; some of them having "recanted many years ago," and more than one "full twenty years back. " These all worshiped your image and the god's statues and cursed the name of Christ. But they declared their guilt or error was simply this---on a fixed day they used to meet before dawn and recite a hymn among themselves to Christ, as though he were a god. So far from binding themselves by oath to commit any crime, they swore to keep from theft, robbery, adultery, breach of faith, and not to deny any trust money deposited with them when called upon to deliver it. This ceremony over, they used to depart and meet again to take food---but it was of no special character, and entirely harmless. They also had ceased from this practice after the edict I issued---by which, in accord with your orders, I forbade all secret societies.



Suetonius, Claudius (25.4)

Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Another form of Christus; see Tert. Apol. 3 (at the end ). It is uncertain whether Suetonius is guilty of an error in chronology or is referring to some Jew of that name. The former seems probable because of the absence of "quodam". Tacitus, Ann. 15.44, uses the correct form, Christus, and states that he was executed in the reign of Tiberius], he expelled them from Rome.



Tacitus, Annales (15, 44)

Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.



Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin (43a)

AND A HERALD PRECEDES HIM etc. This implies, only immediately before [the execution], but not previous thereto. [In contradiction to this] it was taught: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!52; Ulla retorted: 'Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be made? Was he not a Mesith [enticer], concerning whom Scripture says, Neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him? With Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the government [or royalty, i.e., influential].'

Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah.

http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=27782

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
Yes, I know. I am an x-Muslim, so I understand their dilemma. No matter how much evidence is provided, they MUST deny the truth at all costs.


stop lying you freak

you were never a muslim to be an ex muslim

why don't you come out of your religious closet you coward and tell all that you are a christian who is hiding his faith so you don't get embarrassed with the amount of BS in the corrupt bible

now tell me, you said you are an ex christian as well, why don't you tell us how christianity is a false religion?


Back in 2004, I was a regular poster at ummah.com. If you want, you can go there and look at up the posts by Fathom and see for yourself. I was a full-fledged Muslim.

Ask cosmicdancer/hassan ... he was there at the same time. In fact, you can see me denouncing my Islamic religion back in 2006 at FFI. Here the link for that denouncement.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum...hp?p=338538&highlight=#338538

That was 2 years ago dude. I'm free, and I will never ever again return to Islam, or Christianity for that matter.

Religion sux. It makes you hate. And yes, Christianity is also a false religion. They all are.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
Yes, I know. I am an x-Muslim, so I understand their dilemma. No matter how much evidence is provided, they MUST deny the truth at all costs.


stop lying you freak

you were never a muslim to be an ex muslim

why don't you come out of your religious closet you coward and tell all that you are a christian who is hiding his faith so you don't get embarrassed with the amount of BS in the corrupt bible

now tell me, you said you are an ex christian as well, why don't you tell us how christianity is a false religion?


Back in 2004, I was a regular poster at ummah.com. If you want, you can go there and look at up the posts by Fathom and see for yourself. I was a full-fledged Muslim.

Ask cosmicdancer/hassan ... he was there at the same time. In fact, you can see me denouncing my Islamic religion back in 2006 at FFI. Here the link for that denouncement.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum...hp?p=338538&highlight=#338538

That was 2 years ago dude. I'm free, and I will never ever again return to Islam, or Christianity for that matter.

Religion sux. It makes you hate. And yes, Christianity is also a false religion. They all are.


Fathom,

I have to agree with Ahmed. You did mention in one of your posts at FFI that you have been an ex-Muslim as well as an ex-Christian. I do not remember exactly where you wrote that but you did. I have to conclude that you were a Christian before you became a Muslim. How long did you remain a full-fledged Christian?

BMZ

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
Yes, I know. I am an x-Muslim, so I understand their dilemma. No matter how much evidence is provided, they MUST deny the truth at all costs.


stop lying you freak

you were never a muslim to be an ex muslim

why don't you come out of your religious closet you coward and tell all that you are a christian who is hiding his faith so you don't get embarrassed with the amount of BS in the corrupt bible

now tell me, you said you are an ex christian as well, why don't you tell us how christianity is a false religion?


Back in 2004, I was a regular poster at ummah.com. If you want, you can go there and look at up the posts by Fathom and see for yourself. I was a full-fledged Muslim.

Ask cosmicdancer/hassan ... he was there at the same time. In fact, you can see me denouncing my Islamic religion back in 2006 at FFI. Here the link for that denouncement.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum...hp?p=338538&highlight=#338538

That was 2 years ago dude. I'm free, and I will never ever again return to Islam, or Christianity for that matter.

Religion sux. It makes you hate. And yes, Christianity is also a false religion. They all are.


Fathom,

I have to agree with Ahmed. You did mention in one of your posts at FFI that you have been an ex-Muslim as well as an ex-Christian. I do not remember exactly where you wrote that but you did. I have to conclude that you were a Christian before you became a Muslim. How long did you remain a full-fledged Christian?

BMZ


To tell you the truth I wasn't much of a Christian. Before I even realized what Islam was, I was questioning the authenticity of the Trinity, and was dead against the practice of praying to Mary, the mother of Jesus.

I was a Roman Catholic, and couldn't see eye to eye with that Christian sect. So I left that church and went on to become a non-denominational Christian, with training to become a pastor of my own church.

But my biggest problem was that I learned what Jesus Christ was actually saying, and it had no resemblance to what the Christians are preaching. I could not bring myself to worship Jesus, as to me he was not God, and never proclaimed he was God in the gospel. So after many years I left the non-denominational (Evangelical actually) Christian church and began my study of religions in general.

I took up the task of furthering my knowledge of the ancient Koine Greek language so that I could justify my interpretation of the words of Jesus when debating Christians. Suffice to say, any Christian who debates me in real life ends up doing one of two things:

1. They hate my guts.
2. They are no longer a Christian.

To me, the truth is the most important thing in life. Therefore, revealing the truth of the words of Jesus helps me to understand what he actually means with the words he used. I have learned to separate Jesus the man, from Christ, the son of God.  Doing so helped me to understand who is actually doing the talking in the Gospel; Jesus the man? Or Christ, the spiritual "son of God?"

Christians hate it when I divide the man from the spirit in regards to Jesus, and the results are what you can read on the FFI forums in regards to my debates with the Christians, who abuse the forum rules with personal insults after personal insults, yet not one of them can even make a dent in my argument. The reason is because I can prove what I say with the very uttered words of Jesus from their own Gospel, and they hate that with a passion.

Was Jesus God? No.
Was Jesus the man the Son of God? No.
Is the Christian concept of the Trinity the truth? No.
Is there only one God? Yes.

So now you can see why I became a Muslim. Look at the list above, and you can see what I had in common with Islam.

One of the biggest problems I had with Islam is that the Muslims denied that Jesus was crucified according to how they "interpret" 4.157 in the Quran. I have investigated this verse extensively, and state without doubt that 4.157 does not in any way, shape, or form deny that Jesus was crucified. It only denies the boast of the Jews who claimed responsibility.

Another problem with some Muslims was their lack of honesty and integrity when confronted with questions about islam. I began to realize that many Muslims would be dishonest and lie because they believed it was in the best interest of Islam and Allah would be pleased with them and forgive them.

You can deny that Muslims practice this all you want, but we both know it's the truth. We both know that the fear of Allah is so great for Muslims that they will indeed deny any truth that speaks against Islam, and lie to protect Islam at all costs. It is an obligation of all Muslims to protect the integrity of Islam at all costs, even if it means lying, misleading, or killing.

It was the attitude of Muslims that made me quit Islam. No true God would ever want anyone to lie for him, die for him, or kill for him. If such a God was as all-powerful as Muslims believe, then such a God would not ever need any puny humans to do such despicable things in His name.

Therefore, Allah is an illogical god, and not worthy of worship.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
One of the biggest problems I had with Islam is that the Muslims denied that Jesus was crucified according to how they "interpret" 4.157 in the Quran. I have investigated this verse extensively, and state without doubt that 4.157 does not in any way, shape, or form deny that Jesus was crucified. It only denies the boast of the Jews who claimed responsibility.


Thanks for your reply. That denial cannot be covered in a short post here. However, instead of going through the entire 4:157, please tell me what does this part tell you, just this part, nothingelse.

"wa ma qataluho, wa ma salabuho."

BMZ

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
One of the biggest problems I had with Islam is that the Muslims denied that Jesus was crucified according to how they "interpret" 4.157 in the Quran. I have investigated this verse extensively, and state without doubt that 4.157 does not in any way, shape, or form deny that Jesus was crucified. It only denies the boast of the Jews who claimed responsibility.


Thanks for your reply. That denial cannot be covered in a short post here. However, instead of going through the entire 4:157, please tell me what does this part tell you, just this part, nothingelse.

"wa ma qataluho, wa ma salabuho."

BMZ


did not kill.
did not crucify.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
One of the biggest problems I had with Islam is that the Muslims denied that Jesus was crucified according to how they "interpret" 4.157 in the Quran. I have investigated this verse extensively, and state without doubt that 4.157 does not in any way, shape, or form deny that Jesus was crucified. It only denies the boast of the Jews who claimed responsibility.


Thanks for your reply. That denial cannot be covered in a short post here. However, instead of going through the entire 4:157, please tell me what does this part tell you, just this part, nothingelse.

"wa ma qataluho, wa ma salabuho."

BMZ


did not kill.
did not crucify.


Not entirely accurate

I advice you to try to be 100% accurate when debating knowledgeable Muslims, what i meann by knowledgeable is them knowing the Quran a to z

now your translation above should be as follow:

and they did not kill him and they did not crucify him


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