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Kill them, fight and kill them. LOL!
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BMZ
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:02 am    Post subject: Kill them, fight and kill them. LOL!  Reply with quote

I wrote this, in response to a Christian poster on a very nice Jewish Site, where I am the only Muslim. We do have very civil discussions.   Very Happy

Here is one just for everyone's reading pleasure. The thought was based upon Ahmed's comment that there is no Sword mentioned in Qur'aan, while the Bible is full of it.


BMZ wrote:
This might be news for you. You will be surprised and shocked to know that there is NO "Sword" word in the entire Qur'aan.
 

XYZ wrote:
Tell me BMZ, when the Qur'an instructs Muslims to "kill them wherever they find them" and instructs Muslims to "smite necks," what is the weapon of choice?

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html



Good question and I will answer that. The Holy Bible does the same.

But first, we must put on record that there is no such word as Sword or putting people to blade in Qur'aan and you have already conceded on this, becasue you could not find the word Sword in Qur'aan.  

Before I give you a detailed answer, tell me what do you understand from what you wrote "kill them where ever you find them" and smite whose necks. If your accusation were true, Muslims would have slain and smitten all the Europeans who entered the ME and other Muslim areas. Would not have given them any chance.  That is where this ridiculous accusation has been concocted, quoted out of context and is put forward by polemic and evangelical Christians.

The order was given to the Muslims of the time during the early period of Islam, when the new Muslims were being persecuted, attacked, tortured and killed.

It was real killing carried out by the pagan Meccans. The Meccans were not slapping the new Muslims' cheeks. If that were the case, Muslims would have been told to offer the other cheek.

It was not a Jesus type scenario, where he was walking freely without being beaten or molested by the Jews. The Jews did not put Jesus and his followers to blade or to the sword, because Jesus and his followers were a few and did not proclaim any new religion.

Jesus had not even been open and frank or honest about his claims. He never declared openly that he was the Messiah or the King of the Jews. He did not come even with a new religion to a people who already had a religion established 1,500 years before his arrival.

There was no idolatory in the Temple. According to gospels, Jesus told a Samaritan woman that he was he (messiah) but told her not to tell. Coming down from the mountain after the alleged transfiguration, he told his disciples not to tell anyone and you know there are such more instances, where he hid the truth.

You thus see Jesus hiding all that from the Jews. According to gospels, Jesus is made to appear as if he was playing a double game.

Now look at Muhammad who was out in the open soon and declared openly that he was a messenger of God and that there is only one God to a Godless and fierce and ruthless tribal people who had about 365 idols, an idol a day.  

Even they were not offically told to turn the other cheek, they did, bore with patience, suffered but to no avail.

When the order to fight was given, it was to fight and kill those who were doing the fighting and killing. Ask yourself a simple question. Did Muhammad issue any order to fight, slaughter and kill all the pagan inhabitants when Mecca was taken back on Prophet's Triumphal Entry into Mecca? You may refer to polemic sources on this.  

Let me know how many thousands of Meccans were killed at Prophet's Triumphal Entry into Mecca?

In those days, there were no B52s doing the carpet-bombing, helicopter gunships and A10 attack aircrafts to blast and pulverise people. Killing people by blasting may seem acceptable and normal to you while in those days it was man to man combat. All swordsmen were smiting, chopping and killing in all parts of the world.  

Where does Qur'aan say that Muslims and I should go out, fight, kill and slay all non-Muslims? You must read the verses and understand what had happened.

BMZ

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:54 am    Post subject: Re: Kill them, fight and kill them. LOL! Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
I wrote this, in response to a Christian poster on a very nice Jewish Site, where I am the only Muslim. We do have very civil discussions.   Very Happy

Here is one just for everyone's reading pleasure. The thought was based upon Ahmed's comment that there is no Sword mentioned in Qur'aan, while the Bible is full of it.


BMZ wrote:
This might be news for you. You will be surprised and shocked to know that there is NO "Sword" word in the entire Qur'aan.
 

XYZ wrote:
Tell me BMZ, when the Qur'an instructs Muslims to "kill them wherever they find them" and instructs Muslims to "smite necks," what is the weapon of choice?

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html



Good question and I will answer that. The Holy Bible does the same.

But first, we must put on record that there is no such word as Sword or putting people to blade in Qur'aan and you have already conceded on this, becasue you could not find the word Sword in Qur'aan.  

Before I give you a detailed answer, tell me what do you understand from what you wrote "kill them where ever you find them" and smite whose necks. If your accusation were true, Muslims would have slain and smitten all the Europeans who entered the ME and other Muslim areas. Would not have given them any chance.  That is where this ridiculous accusation has been concocted, quoted out of context and is put forward by polemic and evangelical Christians.

The order was given to the Muslims of the time during the early period of Islam, when the new Muslims were being persecuted, attacked, tortured and killed.

It was real killing carried out by the pagan Meccans. The Meccans were not slapping the new Muslims' cheeks. If that were the case, Muslims would have been told to offer the other cheek.

It was not a Jesus type scenario, where he was walking freely without being beaten or molested by the Jews. The Jews did not put Jesus and his followers to blade or to the sword, because Jesus and his followers were a few and did not proclaim any new religion.

Jesus had not even been open and frank or honest about his claims. He never declared openly that he was the Messiah or the King of the Jews. He did not come even with a new religion to a people who already had a religion established 1,500 years before his arrival.

There was no idolatory in the Temple. According to gospels, Jesus told a Samaritan woman that he was he (messiah) but told her not to tell. Coming down from the mountain after the alleged transfiguration, he told his disciples not to tell anyone and you know there are such more instances, where he hid the truth.

You thus see Jesus hiding all that from the Jews. According to gospels, Jesus is made to appear as if he was playing a double game.

Now look at Muhammad who was out in the open soon and declared openly that he was a messenger of God and that there is only one God to a Godless and fierce and ruthless tribal people who had about 365 idols, an idol a day.  

Even they were not offically told to turn the other cheek, they did, bore with patience, suffered but to no avail.

When the order to fight was given, it was to fight and kill those who were doing the fighting and killing. Ask yourself a simple question. Did Muhammad issue any order to fight, slaughter and kill all the pagan inhabitants when Mecca was taken back on Prophet's Triumphal Entry into Mecca? You may refer to polemic sources on this.  

Let me know how many thousands of Meccans were killed at Prophet's Triumphal Entry into Mecca?

In those days, there were no B52s doing the carpet-bombing, helicopter gunships and A10 attack aircrafts to blast and pulverise people. Killing people by blasting may seem acceptable and normal to you while in those days it was man to man combat. All swordsmen were smiting, chopping and killing in all parts of the world.  

Where does Qur'aan say that Muslims and I should go out, fight, kill and slay all non-Muslims? You must read the verses and understand what had happened.

BMZ

Yes BMZ, but if you consider the entire koran, you will find the lack of verses for muslims who are NOT being persecuted. A lack of verses for muslims who just want a set of moral guidance for this world. When the vast makority of your verses are only there to punish disbelievers, when the vast majority of reasons to enter hell are for disbelieving, when I sayy vast majority, I mean over 90%, then that book is no longer a tool for self-defence and moral guidance.

It is a book of aggression. And you are right, the sword is not the weapon of choice to smite necks. If the guy is already bound on the floor, the weapon of choice is small serrated knife that will cause a lot more pain then a nice clean sword cut.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Kill them, fight and kill them. LOL! Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
BMZ wrote:
I wrote this, in response to a Christian poster on a very nice Jewish Site, where I am the only Muslim. We do have very civil discussions.   Very Happy

Here is one just for everyone's reading pleasure. The thought was based upon Ahmed's comment that there is no Sword mentioned in Qur'aan, while the Bible is full of it.


BMZ wrote:
This might be news for you. You will be surprised and shocked to know that there is NO "Sword" word in the entire Qur'aan.
 

XYZ wrote:
Tell me BMZ, when the Qur'an instructs Muslims to "kill them wherever they find them" and instructs Muslims to "smite necks," what is the weapon of choice?

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html



Good question and I will answer that. The Holy Bible does the same.

But first, we must put on record that there is no such word as Sword or putting people to blade in Qur'aan and you have already conceded on this, becasue you could not find the word Sword in Qur'aan.  

Before I give you a detailed answer, tell me what do you understand from what you wrote "kill them where ever you find them" and smite whose necks. If your accusation were true, Muslims would have slain and smitten all the Europeans who entered the ME and other Muslim areas. Would not have given them any chance.  That is where this ridiculous accusation has been concocted, quoted out of context and is put forward by polemic and evangelical Christians.

The order was given to the Muslims of the time during the early period of Islam, when the new Muslims were being persecuted, attacked, tortured and killed.

It was real killing carried out by the pagan Meccans. The Meccans were not slapping the new Muslims' cheeks. If that were the case, Muslims would have been told to offer the other cheek.

It was not a Jesus type scenario, where he was walking freely without being beaten or molested by the Jews. The Jews did not put Jesus and his followers to blade or to the sword, because Jesus and his followers were a few and did not proclaim any new religion.

Jesus had not even been open and frank or honest about his claims. He never declared openly that he was the Messiah or the King of the Jews. He did not come even with a new religion to a people who already had a religion established 1,500 years before his arrival.

There was no idolatory in the Temple. According to gospels, Jesus told a Samaritan woman that he was he (messiah) but told her not to tell. Coming down from the mountain after the alleged transfiguration, he told his disciples not to tell anyone and you know there are such more instances, where he hid the truth.

You thus see Jesus hiding all that from the Jews. According to gospels, Jesus is made to appear as if he was playing a double game.

Now look at Muhammad who was out in the open soon and declared openly that he was a messenger of God and that there is only one God to a Godless and fierce and ruthless tribal people who had about 365 idols, an idol a day.  

Even they were not offically told to turn the other cheek, they did, bore with patience, suffered but to no avail.

When the order to fight was given, it was to fight and kill those who were doing the fighting and killing. Ask yourself a simple question. Did Muhammad issue any order to fight, slaughter and kill all the pagan inhabitants when Mecca was taken back on Prophet's Triumphal Entry into Mecca? You may refer to polemic sources on this.  

Let me know how many thousands of Meccans were killed at Prophet's Triumphal Entry into Mecca?

In those days, there were no B52s doing the carpet-bombing, helicopter gunships and A10 attack aircrafts to blast and pulverise people. Killing people by blasting may seem acceptable and normal to you while in those days it was man to man combat. All swordsmen were smiting, chopping and killing in all parts of the world.  

Where does Qur'aan say that Muslims and I should go out, fight, kill and slay all non-Muslims? You must read the verses and understand what had happened.

BMZ

Yes BMZ, but if you consider the entire koran, you will find the lack of verses for muslims who are NOT being persecuted. A lack of verses for muslims who just want a set of moral guidance for this world. When the vast makority of your verses are only there to punish disbelievers, when the vast majority of reasons to enter hell are for disbelieving, when I sayy vast majority, I mean over 90%, then that book is no longer a tool for self-defence and moral guidance.

It is a book of aggression. And you are right, the sword is not the weapon of choice to smite necks. If the guy is already bound on the floor, the weapon of choice is small serrated knife that will cause a lot more pain then a nice clean sword cut.


Thank you very much for the opening part of your post, Baal.

Quote:
Yes BMZ,


You are the first person, who said Yes to my explanation and I appreciate that.

That was what I was really after.

BMZ

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Kill them, fight and kill them. LOL! Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Good question and I will answer that. The Holy Bible does the same.


I think I would die of shock if a muslim made an argument and DIDN’T resort to tu quoque!

Baal wrote:
consider the entire koran, you will find the lack of verses for muslims who are NOT being persecuted. A lack of verses for muslims who just want a set of moral guidance for this world.
On a related note, I recall when I went through bad times recently and turned desperately to the Qur’ân for some words of guidance and peace. Something I could recite as a mantra to help ease my troubled soul. And guess what? I found bugger all, just exhortations to remember god or go to hell. After posting on muslim forums online I had people suggest supplications — but none of them came directly from the Qur’ân. Interestingly, the Bible contains many such passages seemingly designed just for such occasions!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Kill them, fight and kill them. LOL! Reply with quote

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Good question and I will answer that. The Holy Bible does the same.


I think I would die of shock if a muslim made an argument and DIDN’T resort to tu quoque!

Baal wrote:
consider the entire koran, you will find the lack of verses for muslims who are NOT being persecuted. A lack of verses for muslims who just want a set of moral guidance for this world.
On a related note, I recall when I went through bad times recently and turned desperately to the Qur’ân for some words of guidance and peace. Something I could recite as a mantra to help ease my troubled soul. And guess what? I found bugger all, just exhortations to remember god or go to hell. After posting on muslim forums online I had people suggest supplications — but none of them came directly from the Qur’ân. Interestingly, the Bible contains many such passages seemingly designed just for such occasions!


lol! Why didn't you ask me? I would have quoted you direct from Qur'aan.  Very Happy Qur'aan has plenty of supplications. One should not use Biblical supplicants because one does not know which one of the three, is one supplicating to. LOL!

When you discuss Islam with a Christian, who raises issues, a Muslim should make full use of an earlier Tu Quoque or one in advance, before the Christian comes up with it. Trust me. It works, no matter how annoyed one gets. lol!

The one that I used, was to make him realise Yahweh's doings in Joshua and Numbers. It is necessary to remind the Pot before it addresses the kettle.  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

You have not seen the Christian Tu Quoque. It straightaway develops into "Your Allah", "Your prophet" and so on, till it starts getting boring and leads to unpleasantness. One has to nip it in the bud.

Cheers
BMZ

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need to specifically mention "the sword" - islam is just one big sword - without all the threats, islam wouldn't exist anymore !

Look at all the islamic onslaught, the conquests, and islamic behaviour once they have the "upper hand" - SWORD !

And plenty of proof for all kinds of violence, ambushing, robbing, stealing, looting, raping, enslaving, and kill kill kill...

Just have a look at your socalled "holy book"...

and of course the many many ahadith...

You don't see no sword ?

Strange... something must be wrong with your eyes or your comprehension then...

Aaaah, yeah, I forgot... you are a victim of the cult, you have been indoctrinated and brainwashed into this hoax and - like so many - now you are blinded "by the light" !

.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Kill them, fight and kill them. LOL! Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:

Yes BMZ, but if you consider the entire koran, you will find the lack of verses for muslims who are NOT being persecuted. A lack of verses for muslims who just want a set of moral guidance for this world. When the vast makority of your verses are only there to punish disbelievers, when the vast majority of reasons to enter hell are for disbelieving, when I sayy vast majority, I mean over 90%, then that book is no longer a tool for self-defence and moral guidance.

It is a book of aggression. And you are right, the sword is not the weapon of choice to smite necks. If the guy is already bound on the floor, the weapon of choice is small serrated knife that will cause a lot more pain then a nice clean sword cut.


[i]Thank you very much for the opening part of your post, Baal.

[/quote]
I am just lowering myself to the level of your apology BMZ.

You are faced with a book where the majority of the verses are violent, when 94% of the reasons people enter hell is for disbelieving or disobeying muhammad. 6% of the reasons is for moral reasons or for doing things bad to other people.

You are answering that somehow, those majority of verses are for the sake of persecuted muslims.

Even if that apology holds water. And it does not. We are still facing a lack of verses for non-persecuted muslims.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:

Good question and I will answer that. The Holy Bible does the same.


Now everybody, let's look at the logic. What he is telling himself is that the behavior is justified because we find it in a book that he thinks is a false lie anyway (the Bible). Did everybody catch that logic? Amazing, isn't it? And they don't even know they do this.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mutley wrote:
BMZ wrote:

Good question and I will answer that. The Holy Bible does the same.


Now everybody, let's look at the logic. What he is telling himself is that the behavior is justified because we find it in a book that he thinks is a false lie anyway (the Bible). Did everybody catch that logic? Amazing, isn't it? And they don't even know they do this.


Mutley,

It has nothing to do with logic. It is just that you do not know my style of writing and responding to pots and different pans. I will let you know now.

My responses are specially 'tailor-made, made to measurement, to fit like a perfect glove' and this is what you should know. I am a very blunt person and I do not use flowery language during discourses. In Arabic, we have "Zukhrufal-Qaule-Ghurrora" for flowery and deceitful language/words. You may check with Baal, All_Brains and Ahmed.

I cannot do that. I can be polite but only with those who are really polite.  Smile  

When one is dealing with a known Christian polemic and evangelist, one has to respond back in his/her style, as this has an immediate impact upon him/her. This helps in making him/her realise that he/she is not a lovely China Porcelain. The one I dealt with, is a "pot". And I make an evangelical  Christian  "pot" realise that he/she should be careful in writing and think before writing.

I apply the same golden rule of mine to those who do not make their affiliations with Christianity known and yet feel irritated and show their displeasure when I write. Those will include your goodself, many at FFI and other sites. This is My style of responding and you should get used to it.  Laughing I like it and enjoy it very much.

Those who are genuinely interested in discussing Islam and Qur'aan, will always find me writing and explaining.

You will notice that even with the political turmoil in the ME, you will not find any such discussions and debates raging between Jews and Muslims. Right? Of course, I am right. Why? Because both have got God right, while Christianity hasn't. You will find it mostly between Christians and Muslims and tu quoque is a tool used by both. In fact, it is quite healthy to use it, just to wake up the other person and shake his/her conscience. Beleiev me it works. Laughing

Forgot to add: I wish to make use of this opportunity to say something which I realised only recently, after having been through with FFI, The Council of Ex-Muslims, All_Brains' and other sites. I found that a genuine ex-Muslim is far better, more thoughtful and more well-mannered than the average polemic Christian during exchanges of thoughts.  Laughing Please think hard on this.  Laughing

Happy Chinese New Year

BMZ

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol BMZ I like your argument, but please understand that making another religion look bad, does not make your own religion better. Sometimes though it seems that you follow that logic. But one thing I like about your argument is that it seems you are arguing from the muslim traditional history, which you by the way at other times seems to question. Do you pick and choose? Another thing I like is that you argue that Jesus never said that he brought a new religion or said that he was the king of jews and therefore was not persecuted by swords. Where you there at the time and did you use the quran or the bible to make this argument? A third thing I like is that you are arguing that Muhammad obviously claimed a new religion and also perhaps claimed to be the leader of? And therefore he was meet by swords. Did he claim a "new" religion differently from that what Jesus did according to the Quran, ie. being a new messenger from "god"?


Alright some further questions arise here concerning the comparison of Muhammad and Jesus and the situation in which they where in. Cause it is interesting which sources you use and how you use them.

Can you show me how Muhammad was molested and beaten? and can you show me wether Muhammad was molested and beaten all the time?
Can you show me that Jesus was not molested and beaten at any time?

And you have to remember that you have to think about which sources you are using, cause in validating your argument about Jesus in comparison to Muhammad you a not sure you can use the christian bible, cause you cannot be sure what is correct and what is wrong (which by the way is another way which we see many muslims using a "pick and choose"-tactic towards the bible). Now concerning the Jesus in the Quran he surely proclaim that he was a messenger of "god", there's no doubt there. He even did it to the people of Israel, you the jews. And that is what is important when you argue from a islamic perspective. So basicly according to your reasoning above the jews should have "molested and beaten" Jesus for claiming to be a prophet and messenger of "god". And also in the case of Muhammad you have to consider which sources you are using. Are you gonna use the traditional history or can you only use the quran to present your argument?

Oh and can you give me references for these?, thanks

Quote:
The order was given to the Muslims of the time during the early period of Islam, when the new Muslims were being persecuted, attacked, tortured and killed.


Quote:
Now look at Muhammad who was out in the open soon and declared openly that he was a messenger of God and that there is only one God to a Godless and fierce and ruthless tribal people who had about 365 idols, an idol a day.  


Of course from sources you think is reliabel.

Cheers

EDIT: Just cleared some points up!


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