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Kill them, fight and kill them. LOL!
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AhmedBahgat
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:26 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

again TV, stop acting silly and shifty


the verses you posted are about kafirs WHO FUKIN LIVE in muslim land, here it is again:

In a muslim land the tax suppose to be as follow:

For the Muslims = Zakat

For the Kafirs =  Jezya

why don't you dismiss yourself and stop wasting the Muslims time?
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And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]


Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
Quote:
"Wa hum saaghayroon" means "when they had surrendered"

Not even close.


How far?  Laughing


Plain and simple...it means humiliated!


Let us do this one A_B and we will come back to saaghayroon, transliteration my way.

Please translate this for me in simple Arabic "Yusuf, Aa'ridh un haaza" and this will help me explain.

Thanks.

BMZ

PS to Baal: You too try to translate, Baal. Thanks


Hello BMZ

I am sorry, I did not understand the sentence. Can you please provide the Arabic text?


Thanks, A_B. The idea is to get translations from various minds. Ahmed is good at that. However, I have tried to copy and paste verse 29 of Surah Yusuf 12, from a site. I have asked you about the first part of the verse, in which Yusuf is addressed by the lady's husband.

   يُوسُفُ أَعْرِضْ عَنْ هَـذَا وَاسْتَغْفِرِي لِذَنبِكِ إِنَّكِ كُنتِ مِنَ الْخَاطِئِينَ

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
again TV, stop acting silly and shifty


the verses you posted are about kafirs WHO FUKIN LIVE in muslim land, here it is again:

In a muslim land the tax suppose to be as follow:

For the Muslims = Zakat

For the Kafirs =  Jezya

why don't you dismiss yourself and stop wasting the Muslims time?


Why do you responding like that? Take it easy mate, we should get your bloodpresure up. Sure the verse is about people, who disbelieve, that live in muslim land. The only thing I argued was that the "humiliation", mentioned in the quran was not about going to prison, because of lack of tax-payment, what seemed, to me at lest, to be what you argued. But that it is about non-believers subduing them to believers. And in the context of the verse it happens after they have lost the battle, "fight ... until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued".

Peace
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
Quote:
"Wa hum saaghayroon" means "when they had surrendered"

Not even close.


How far?  Laughing


Plain and simple...it means humiliated!


Let us do this one A_B and we will come back to saaghayroon, transliteration my way.

Please translate this for me in simple Arabic "Yusuf, Aa'ridh un haaza" and this will help me explain.

Thanks.

BMZ

PS to Baal: You too try to translate, Baal. Thanks


Hello BMZ

I am sorry, I did not understand the sentence. Can you please provide the Arabic text?


Thanks, A_B. The idea is to get translations from various minds. Ahmed is good at that. However, I have tried to copy and paste verse 29 of Surah Yusuf 12, from a site. I have asked you about the first part of the verse, in which Yusuf is addressed by the lady's husband.

   يُوسُفُ أَعْرِضْ عَنْ هَـذَا وَاسْتَغْفِرِي لِذَنبِكِ إِنَّكِ كُنتِ مِنَ الْخَاطِئِينَ


Aghrid means: Avoid, abstain, refrain....basically don't do it!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
Quote:
"Wa hum saaghayroon" means "when they had surrendered"

Not even close.


How far?  Laughing


Plain and simple...it means humiliated!


Let us do this one A_B and we will come back to saaghayroon, transliteration my way.

Please translate this for me in simple Arabic "Yusuf, Aa'ridh un haaza" and this will help me explain.

Thanks.

BMZ

PS to Baal: You too try to translate, Baal. Thanks


Hello BMZ

I am sorry, I did not understand the sentence. Can you please provide the Arabic text?


Thanks, A_B. The idea is to get translations from various minds. Ahmed is good at that. However, I have tried to copy and paste verse 29 of Surah Yusuf 12, from a site. I have asked you about the first part of the verse, in which Yusuf is addressed by the lady's husband.

   يُوسُفُ أَعْرِضْ عَنْ هَـذَا وَاسْتَغْفِرِي لِذَنبِكِ إِنَّكِ كُنتِ مِنَ الْخَاطِئِينَ


Aghrid means: Avoid, abstain, refrain....basically don't do it!


Wasn't asking for the meaning of the word aA'ridh, A_B. But you did come up with "don't do it!"

Could you come up with some more translations for     يُوسُفُ أَعْرِضْ عَنْ هَـذَا ? Most of the translators translate that as "Turn away from this!"

I want some more, please. I am leading you towards a very important point which you will appreciate later. A point which very few understand. Please do consider this as an intellectual discourse.

BMZ

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AhmedBahgat
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
again TV, stop acting silly and shifty


the verses you posted are about kafirs WHO FUKIN LIVE in muslim land, here it is again:

In a muslim land the tax suppose to be as follow:

For the Muslims = Zakat

For the Kafirs =  Jezya

why don't you dismiss yourself and stop wasting the Muslims time?


Why do you responding like that? Take it easy mate, we should get your bloodpresure up. Sure the verse is about people, who disbelieve, that live in muslim land. The only thing I argued was that the "humiliation", mentioned in the quran was not about going to prison, because of lack of tax-payment, what seemed, to me at lest, to be what you argued. But that it is about non-believers subduing them to believers. And in the context of the verse it happens after they have lost the battle, "fight ... until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued".

Peace


if my blood pressure is high then your itch is far higher, stop acting so itchy regarding islam

what do you want to achieve exactly?

do you ant to become a muslim or do you want others not to become muslims?

it's one or the other

anyway, from now on I should dismiss most of your stupid questions
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:

if my blood pressure is high then your itch is far higher, stop acting so itchy regarding islam

what do you want to achieve exactly?

do you ant to become a muslim or do you want others not to become muslims?

it's one or the other

anyway, from now on I should dismiss most of your stupid questions


"should" should of course have been "shouldn't".

Quote:
what do you want to achieve exactly?


Personally I'm learning about different subjects. And also again this forum is about debating different things.

Quote:
do you ant to become a muslim or do you want others not to become muslims?


now that you ask I'm might aswell tell why I do use time on debating religions.
I've been debating with many non-muslims for a long time concerning islam. They are arguing a ONE islam. I argued that islam could be many different things, cause the interpretation a different from one individual to another. You and BMZ seems for instans to have different interpretation of different elements of islam and the quran. What I've been arguing is that people should have the freedom to believe what they would like to believe.

But, yes there's a but (there's actually a couple), I find that fundamentalist of every kind of any religion is unhealthy for society. This is both concerning hinduist, muslims, christians, bahais, etc. Therefore I would like to debate the subjects at matter, ie. the things which a written in the document of the different faiths. In the part of islam I find some references to war and the like, that I find disturbing if people was to follow them. If people find their sacred texts to be divine and should be followed literal, this would mean fx that homosexuals would be seen as sick people, which they are not, a woman would get wipped for having sex with a man she was not married to etc. etc. these things are in my perspective horrible things and I would not like it to be practized. Therefore in that perspective, if being muslim (or christian etc) is about that; no I would not like people to become muslims (or christians etc).

another part of "but"... is that I see that the creationist groups of islam and christianity, and most likely in the future other faiths aswell, is taunting and corrupting science. Furthemore different believers might get bad influence from their religion in relation to their work. If people where to believe in elements of a specific faith they would not be able to do specific progress in science or, fx with medicine, ie. female and male muslims doctors who will not treat the oppossite sex. Things as for instans stem cell-research is religiously criticised in USA. And is it possible from a quranic perspective that a child has no male parent? Scientific progress most likely would result to that humans can reproduce without any influence by men like you and me. Are we crossing a boundary of "gods" law here? Or when scientist a making synthetic life? But back to the point is that believers of different faiths, if they took it literally, could ignore possible progress because it is against their belief. And the more believers there is the more chance there is of negative influence. so in that perspective I would not like people to become christians/muslims/hinduist etc.

Now this is not about that every christians and every muslims is like this or that. But the fact is that different groups of fx christianity and islam has some very literal understandings of their scriptures which I think is damaging for humanity and for the future of humanity. Therefore the issue should be discussed. The best sceanario in my opinion is if believers would consider their scriptures to be of inspiration from "god" and therefore only some "good suggestion" as to how to live. And furthermore if people was to pick and choose so that they would "forget" about slavery in fx the bible.
You have some different observations in some matters, and some of them a quit positive in my opinion, but you also have some which I find disturbing.

This was my introduction or hello to this forum:

Quote:
I have never been christian, muslim, or religious at all for that matter. I consider every single notion of religion and divinity as a social construction by us humans, trying to find answers.

I became interested in debating religions only recently when I discovered that youtube was infested with religious missionaries from different groups. The main group that stuck out was the islamic "miracles", ie. fx Zakir Naik, Harun Yahya. I was amazed of the silly claims put forward, and decided to be part of the debate. But I'm still in the early learningstages. I'm not as such against any religion, but I would like, using Daniel Dennets words, that the spell was broken. And since I don't think that religions will ever vanish I sincerely hope that moderates will get a firm grip of the religion they adhere too, as, I think, is the case for most christian communities in Europe.

This became a long "hello"


And to emphazize it, I would like to contribute to the process of breaking the spell. That is what I want! But of course there's a narrow line between wanting freedom to people to choose their beliefs and then wanting to be critical of different beliefs. I try to be in that line. But I have not argued with anyone who has not themselves already engaged in debating their own religion. I only debate those who I feel is doing missioning or is already active in the religious dispute (you are one of the last in my perspective and fx HFD is one of the first)

And dismiss me if that is what you want. But honestly I don't see what exactly I did wrong in your opinion, other than disputing what you said.

Peace mate.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
again TV, stop acting silly and shifty


the verses you posted are about kafirs WHO FUKIN LIVE in muslim land, here it is again:

In a muslim land the tax suppose to be as follow:

For the Muslims = Zakat

For the Kafirs =  Jezya

why don't you dismiss yourself and stop wasting the Muslims time?

Tell that to all the islamic rulers who actually charged jizya. Zakat was 2.5% of the income, a very small and meagre donation and tax. Even the OT said that the donation should be 10% so islam even lowered it. So Zakat was often included in the taxation system of the country and EVERYONE paid it.

Jizya when collected, was always in a different order of magnitude. It is bad enough that Jizya is derived from the word: "Jaza' - which means reward or retribution" I will let you pick which of the Two words fits the Jizya.

Jizya was collected above and beyond the tax/zakat that everyone else paid. And it had to be paid: "Wa hum Saghirun" "while they are humiliated".
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:


I want some more, please. I am leading you towards a very important point which you will appreciate later. A point which very few understand. Please do consider this as an intellectual discourse.

BMZ[/i]


Hello BMZ

There isn't really any more meanings to this word! I have given you three examples of different word choices that all point to one single meaning really!!!

Please share with us your point, as the direct approach may be best on this occasion.

Regards
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Hello BMZ

There isn't really any more meanings to this word! I have given you three examples of different word choices that all point to one single meaning really!!!

Please share with us your point, as the direct approach may be best on this occasion.

Regards


Hello, A_B

Here is my point:

It doesn't suffice to be just a speaker of a language. More knowledge is needed  to understand idioms, proverbs, the figuratives and various styles of a language.

When I quoted that verse in Arabic, you came up with a meaning and I quoted the translators' choice of words but you would notice that "Yusuf, don't do this!" or "Yusuf, turn away from this!" does not convey the correct meaning at all. Thus literal translation and other meanings by Arabic speakers may not necessarily reflect the most appropriate equivalent in English.

If we read the passage, not just a particular part of the verse, we can come up with the closest meaning.

Thus the verse would mean, the husband of the lady was saying: "Forget it, Yusuf!"

What do you think?

Likewise, "wa hum saaghiroon" would not necessarily mean "they were humiliated".

BMZ



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