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4:16, arabic speakers please!
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ibnishaq
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: 4:16, arabic speakers please!  Reply with quote

Hi everyone! ok so i read on a site that 4"16 of qu'ran was speaking of homosexuals. but then i looked at translations and they differed and found out that scholars disagreed about this all throughout history.

وَٱلَّذَانِ يَأۡتِيَـٰنِهَا مِنڪُمۡ فَـَٔاذُوهُمَا‌ۖ فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصۡلَحَا فَأَعۡرِضُواْ عَنۡهُمَآ‌ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ ڪَانَ تَوَّابً۬ا رَّحِيمًا
Waallathani ya/tiyaniha minkum faathoohuma fa-in taba waaslaha faaAAridoo AAanhuma inna Allaha kana tawwaban raheeman

Sale - And if two of you commit the like [wickedness], punish them both: But if they repent and amend, let them both alone; for God is easy to be reconciled and merciful.

Rodwell - And if two men among you commit the same crime, then punish them both; but if they turn and amend, then let them be: for God is He who turneth, Merciful!


Palmer - And if two of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.

Arberry - And when two of you commit indecency, punish them both; but if they repent and make amends, then suffer them to be; God turns, and is All-compassionate.

Khalifa - The couple who commits adultery shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.

Sher Ali - And if two from among you are guilty of it, punish them both. And if they repent and amend, then leave them alone; surely ALLAH is Oft-Returning with compassion and is ever Merciful.

Shakir - And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

Khan - And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both. And if they repent (promise Allah that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allah is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, (and He is) Most Merciful.

Ali - If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

Rodwell - And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is ever relenting, Merciful.


vrse 15 speaks about women who are guilty of lewdness and that if they are then have 4 witnesses and they will be punished to solidary confinement. so some of the translators say that vrse 16 is just saying that if someone is guilty of lewdness(the adulterers) that they should be punished, unless they repent. so it is like "If a woman is guilty of lewdness and there are 4 wiensses, put her in solidary confinement. if they are guilty, punish them both, unless they repent and amend."

BUT, then some like Ali say it is speaking about gays. same with rodwell. they think that vrse 15 is about women who commit fornication and then 6 is about gays, so it just sort of switches topic.

imam shaf'ii thought it was speaking about just adultery and not about gays. but ibn abas said it ws about gays.

so what does the arabic say? i know that rajul or rejal is not used in there so idk!
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AhmedBahgat
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't I told you many times already that 4:16 is about the queers?

Al Laazan = a device to refer to two males
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Haven't I told you many times already that 4:16 is about the queers?

Al Laazan = a device to refer to two males


Agreed! Allah hates queers, specially those who are genetically that way. Allah hates his own creatures!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Haven't I told you many times already that 4:16 is about the queers?

Al Laazan = a device to refer to two males


Agreed! Allah hates queers, specially those who are genetically that way. Allah hates his own creatures!


I never talked about hate in my comment really, so what are you agreeing on exactly?

on the other hand I don'y buy such crap by the queers that they are such way genetically,, simply the males either like to fuk other males in the anus or getting fuked in the anus, they also love sucking dicks, for the females howveer they like licking pussies and sucking nipples

cheers
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Palmer seems the most accurate.

The previous verse states "any of your women who bring the scanal.."
And in 4:16 *it* refers to the scandal.

Al Lazan can be applied to a man and a woman OR Two men.

Ahmed you state it can only be applied to Two men. Imagine it was really meant ONLY for 'a man and a woman', it still could have said Al Lazan.

If Two males it will sound "Al Lazan".
One man & One woman it will still sound the same: "Al Lazan".
Only Two females would sound different: "Al Latayn".
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
Palmer seems the most accurate.

The previous verse states "any of your women who bring the scanal.."
And in 4:16 *it* refers to the scandal.

Al Lazan can be applied to a man and a woman OR Two men.

Ahmed you state it can only be applied to Two men. Imagine it was really meant ONLY for 'a man and a woman', it still could have said Al Lazan.

If Two males it will sound "Al Lazan".
One man & One woman it will still sound the same: "Al Lazan".
Only Two females would sound different: "Al Latayn".

yea that is what i was thinking that it was not just as simple as one would think.

i also heard about some masculine ending to a word though with the dual or something. is that true?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Haven't I told you many times already that 4:16 is about the queers?

Al Laazan = a device to refer to two males


Agreed! Allah hates queers, specially those who are genetically that way. Allah hates his own creatures!


I never talked about hate in my comment really, so what are you agreeing on exactly?

on the other hand I don'y buy such crap by the queers that they are such way genetically,, simply the males either like to fuk other males in the anus or getting fuked in the anus, they also love sucking dicks, for the females howveer they like licking pussies and sucking nipples

cheers

ahmed this is a reason i am still not a muslim. i have heard many scholars say(and correctly say) that god would not make someone a homosexual and then punish them in hell because of it!

but let me tell you, i did not choose to be homo. i get very turned on in the locker room by hot guys who are taking a shower lol

but i did not choose to get turned on i just do. and a girl could NEVER turn me on like that ever.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
Palmer seems the most accurate.

The previous verse states "any of your women who bring the scanal.."
And in 4:16 *it* refers to the scandal.

Al Lazan can be applied to a man and a woman OR Two men.

Ahmed you state it can only be applied to Two men. Imagine it was really meant ONLY for 'a man and a woman', it still could have said Al Lazan.

If Two males it will sound "Al Lazan".
One man & One woman it will still sound the same: "Al Lazan".
Only Two females would sound different: "Al Latayn".


wrong pal, this is because the verse before it which taljs about the same thing is talking about females only

you are dismissed for being confused
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[The Quran ; 17:81]
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Haven't I told you many times already that 4:16 is about the queers?

Al Laazan = a device to refer to two males


Agreed! Allah hates queers, specially those who are genetically that way. Allah hates his own creatures!


I never talked about hate in my comment really, so what are you agreeing on exactly?

on the other hand I don'y buy such crap by the queers that they are such way genetically,, simply the males either like to fuk other males in the anus or getting fuked in the anus, they also love sucking dicks, for the females howveer they like licking pussies and sucking nipples

cheers

ahmed this is a reason i am still not a muslim. i have heard many scholars say(and correctly say) that god would not make someone a homosexual and then punish them in hell because of it!

but let me tell you, i did not choose to be homo. i get very turned on in the locker room by hot guys who are taking a shower lol

but i did not choose to get turned on i just do. and a girl could NEVER turn me on like that ever.



that's right, all sinners will say, we didn't chose to be so, actually there a verse in the Quran that implies the same

see, if you go to jail, you should hear from all inmates that they are innocent

cheers
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
but let me tell you, i did not choose to be homo. i get very turned on in the locker room by hot guys who are taking a shower lol

but i did not choose to get turned on i just do. and a girl could NEVER turn me on like that ever.


you have been traped in the devil perverse sexual thoughts

try harder to beat him or he will take you with him into a burning fire


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