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How come some prophets didn't do Hajj?
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AhmedBahgat
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:46 pm    Post subject: How come some prophets didn't do Hajj?  Reply with quote

Salam all

A dumb woman on FFI raised a stupid argument to how come other prophets whom the Quran claim to be Muslims did not perform the Hajj while it is obligatory on all Muslims

To be honest, most (if not all) of what that woman ask is nothing but stupidity and ignorance, therefore most of what she raises has to be dismissed by myself in the nearest rubbish bin. Not to my surprise that the low kafirs follow the path of ignorance of each other,  a confused chap named Haji Murad who is ignorantly doubting the clear and obvious success of Mohammed, continued the stupidity of such woman and started to raise lengthy crap regarding the same argument raised by such stupid woman.

His stupid argument is summarized as follow:

Haji Murad of FFI said:
Hajj and Prophets Before Muhammad

Introductory note: This is an addendum to the ongoing discussion on "Islamic prophets went to Hajj". I will try to explicate the noncompliance of Islamic prophets (apart from Abraham and Muhammad) who never made it to Ka'ba on pilgrimage is a serious breach of prophetic etiquettes.
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Ahmed says:

Hahahahaha, how dumb and ignorant such freaks of FFI, let me show you how 4 verses from the Quran should demolish his stupidity and ignorance while at the same time exposing it to the whole world.

Firstly, the issue of when the kaaba was built:

Well, the Quran never told us when it was built, however the Quran implies strongly that it was built before Ibrahim, letís look at following verse:

And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! Accept from us; surely You are the all- Hearing, the all-Knowing.

[The Quan ; 2:127]

وَإِذْ يَرْفَعُ إِبْرَاهِيمُ الْقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الْبَيْتِ وَإِسْمَاعِيلُ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلْ مِنَّا إِنَّكَ أَنتَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ (127)

-> See above: وَإِذْ يَرْفَعُ إِبْرَاهِيمُ الْقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الْبَيْتِ وَإِسْمَاعِيلُ , which should mean: And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House, i.e. the foundations of the House were there already, what Ibrahim and his son Ismael did was only to raise the foundations, it implies that the foundations were buried somewhere due to whatever reason before him (Ibrahim),  then Ibrahim and his son were informed to where the foundations were buried then all they did was to raise it above ground.

Letís move on to the next verse, which should confirm the above:

And when We designated to Ibrahim the place of the House, saying: Do not associate with Me aught, and purify My House for those who make the circuit and stand to pray and bow and prostrate themselves

[The Quan ; 22:26]

وَإِذْ بَوَّأْنَا لِإِبْرَاهِيمَ مَكَانَ الْبَيْتِ أَن لَّا تُشْرِكْ بِي شَيْئًا وَطَهِّرْ بَيْتِيَ لِلطَّائِفِينَ وَالْقَائِمِينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجُودِ (26)

-> See: وَإِذْ بَوَّأْنَا لِإِبْرَاهِيمَ مَكَانَ الْبَيْتِ , i.e. And when We designated to Ibrahim the place of the House, i.e. the place of the House was already there where its foundations is located, Ibrahim was only designated to such place, i.e. Ibrahim never built such place from scratch, in the same verse we read that Ibrahim was ordered to: Do not associate with Me aught, and purify My House for those who make the circuit and stand to pray and bow and prostrate themselves

From the above 2 verses, Ibrahim was assigned a few tasks, let me point them out so far:

1) Raise the foundations of the House (2:127)
2) Purify the House for those who make the circuit and stand to pray and bow and prostrate themselves (22:26)

Then in the next verse 22:27 we read that Ibrahim was ordered to do a third task:

And proclaim among men the Pilgrimage: they will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, coming from every remote path,

[The Quan ; 22:27]

وَأَذِّن فِي النَّاسِ بِالْحَجِّ يَأْتُوكَ رِجَالًا وَعَلَى كُلِّ ضَامِرٍ يَأْتِينَ مِن كُلِّ فَجٍّ عَمِيقٍ (27)

-> See: وَأَذِّن فِي النَّاسِ بِالْحَجِّ , Wa Aazan Fi Al Nas Be Al Hajj, i.e. And proclaim among men the Pilgrimage, this is very important bit, because the word used is Aazan, i.e. inform, i.e. like the word Azaan, The prayer call, i.e. Ibrahim only informed the people that this place which he unravelled then raised above ground then purified is the place for them to do Hajj, i.e. the verse is never an indication that Hajj was obligatory during that time, it was only to inform the people that the House of Allah is ready for them, this confirms brother Berber argument that it was never obligatory during Ibrahim time.  

Now the following verse where the Hajj was ordained by Allah as an obligatory worshipping practice upon all people should demolish the rest of the kafir ignorance, this is because up to the time of revealing this verse, the Hajj was never obligatory upon all the people as we learnt above, remember, Ibrahim only announced to the people that the place of the house is a place for them to come and worship Allah. Now, even when it was made obligatory by Allah Himself as we will read soon, we should recognise with ease that it was never an obligatory like the Salat (the prayer) to be a Muslim, letís have a look:

In it are clear signs, the prayer-place of Ibrahim, and whoever entered it shall be secure, and to Allah pilgrimage of the House is incumbent upon the people, those who are able to find a way of doing it; and whoever disbelieved, then indeed Allah is independent of the creatures.

[The Quan ; 3:97]

فِيهِ آيَاتٌ بَيِّنَاتٌ مَّقَامُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمَن دَخَلَهُ كَانَ آمِنًا وَلِلّهِ عَلَى النَّاسِ حِجُّ الْبَيْتِ مَنِ اسْتَطَاعَ إِلَيْهِ سَبِيلاً وَمَن كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ الله غَنِيٌّ عَنِ الْعَالَمِينَ (97)

-> See how the order regarding the Hajj upon all people was given by Allah Himself: وَلِلّهِ عَلَى النَّاسِ حِجُّ الْبَيْتِ , Wa Lillah Ala  Al Nas Hajj Al Bayt, i.e. and to Allah, pilgrimage of the House is incumbent upon the people, see how the order is now given directly by Allah and not Ibrahim, this should mean from the time of such verse revelation, Hajj became compulsory, HOWEVER and this is a very BIG HOWEVER, the Hajj compulsion was never as the prayer compulsion, see how Allah gave an exemption to many people from doing the Hajj: مَنِ اسْتَطَاعَ إِلَيْهِ سَبِيلاً , Mann Isttataa Ilaihi Sabeela, i.e. those who are able to find a way of doing it, SEE, let me put it to you together just in case you are dumb enough not to see it and read it:

This is how the order of the Hajj is given by Allah as we read in 3:97,

وَلِلّهِ عَلَى النَّاسِ حِجُّ الْبَيْتِ مَنِ اسْتَطَاعَ إِلَيْهِ سَبِيلا

And this is how it should be read in Arabic:

Wa Lillah Ala  Al Nas Hajj Al Bayt, Mann Isttataa Ilaihi Sabeela

And this is what it means in English:

and to Allah pilgrimage of the House is incumbent upon the people, those who are able to find a way of doing it.

How clear is that, let me assume for argument sake that when Ibrahim was ordered in 22:27  to And proclaim among men the Pilgrimage is the order of compulsion upon all people including the prophets and messengers, again their stpid argument holds no water because maybe MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE INCLUDING PROPHETS AND MESSNEGERS COULD NOT FIND A WAY OF DOING IT, yet they are Muslims according to 3:97

What a slam dunk that is boys and girls, I love it how I use the Quran alone to expose you almost every day, I love the Quran

Now, refute the above freaks, and till then keep looking at the following animation:

[img:300:100]http://free-islam.com/extraimages/slamdunk.gif[/img]

Salam
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salaams, Ahmed

Which dumb woman was that? I know only three. They are Ms.Westerner, fire_snake and Mersk. However, I am sure it could not have been Ms.Westerner for she cannot see past through her nose. †Laughing

Please let the dumb lady know that Qur'aan came after all biblical prophets, mentioned in Qur'aan, had expired centuries ago.

Most of the Biblical prophets lived in Israel and visited Jerusalem, which was also the Temple of God.
Jesus, reportedly, also walked a total of approximately 24,000 kilometres within a period of 24 months at the rate of 30 kilometres per day but he never crossed the Jordan. Jesus is also reported to have done a "Triumphal Hajj" of Jerusalem. †

Abraham was a travelling-sort of prophet who traversed the valleys and other challenging landscapes from Arabia to Hebron, including some areas up North and some down South.

The FFI goons, naturally being dumb, do not realise that Muhammad was told to revive the practice of Hajj which was done by Abraham and his followers.

Haven't read much of Haji Murad. Will try to read his junk and stuff, when I proxy in. However, ask him this question:

"Why were Muslims not ordered to go to Jerusalem for Hajj?" Load him up with another hint question, "Why did Allah allow Muhammad to change the Qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca?"

Once you have posted, please let me know the link and I will follow. I may get busy on Topix.com, to see how Anti-Jihad is blasting the Muslims there. He has "invited" me there.  Laughing  

Salaams
BMZ

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Salaams, Ahmed

Which dumb woman was that? I know only three. They are Ms.Westerner, fire_snake and Mersk. However, I am sure it could not have been Ms.Westerner for she cannot see past through her nose. †Laughing

Please let the dumb lady know that Qur'aan came after all biblical prophets, mentioned in Qur'aan, had expired centuries ago.

Most of the Biblical prophets lived in Israel and visited Jerusalem, which was also the Temple of God.
Jesus, reportedly, also walked a total of approximately 24,000 kilometres within a period of 24 months at the rate of 30 kilometres per day but he never crossed the Jordan. Jesus is also reported to have done a "Triumphal Hajj" of Jerusalem. †

Abraham was a travelling-sort of prophet who traversed the valleys and other challenging landscapes from Arabia to Hebron, including some areas up North and some down South.

The FFI goons, naturally being dumb, do not realise that Muhammad was told to revive the practice of Hajj which was done by Abraham and his followers.

Haven't read much of Haji Murad. Will try to read his junk and stuff, when I proxy in. However, ask him this question:

"Why were Muslims not ordered to go to Jerusalem for Hajj?" Load him up with another hint question, "Why did Allah allow Muhammad to change the Qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca?"

Once you have posted, please let me know the link and I will follow. I may get busy on Topix.com, to see how Anti-Jihad is blasting the Muslims there. He has "invited" me there. †Laughing

Salaams
BMZ


Here we go mate

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1066121#1066121

Take care
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:43 pm    Post subject: Hello, Ahmed Reply with quote

Thanks for posting that message. As expected, there was an immdiate incoherent response from the two women, named earlier.

Can you invite those two here?  Very Happy

I am taking this opportunity to ask All_Brains if this type of cross-referencing and cross-posting is permitted or not.

Salaams
BMZ

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the prophets and messengers could not make it to hajj.

Good work Ahmed.

So you mean to say that, all those prophets who also happen to be semitic, who happen to have existed somewhere on the Southeast of the Mediterranean, who were not in india or china or the americas, those semitic prophets, were not able to find a way to do hajj.

Maybe they did not own a lean camel? but many of them were kings of their own people, they owned ALL the lean camels they needed.

What you should concern yourself Ahmed is the following, why in the beginning muhammad told the muslims to face jerusalem, and then in less then 13 years, muhammad went back and told people to face kaaba.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: Hello, Ahmed Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Thanks for posting that message. As expected, there was an immdiate incoherent response from the two women, named earlier.

Can you invite those two here?  Very Happy

I am taking this opportunity to ask All_Brains if this type of cross-referencing and cross-posting is permitted or not.

Salaams
BMZ


Hello BMZ

I would be a hypocrite if I preach freedom for all and then deny your freedom!

Also, I must say that I find fire-snake to be a simpleton.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

far out baal

Baal wrote:
So the prophets and messengers could not make it to hajj.


Did I say that?

please read again what i said

Baal wrote:

Good work Ahmed.


Actually my argument is irrefutable


Baal wrote:
So you mean to say that, all those prophets who also happen to be semitic, who happen to have existed somewhere on the Southeast of the Mediterranean, who were not in india or china or the americas, those semitic prophets, were not able to find a way to do hajj.


That is if you prove beyond a doubt that they didn't so the hajj

my argument is simply based on that

when you prove that, then what I said from the Quran should slam dunk those who alleg that those prophets can not be Muslim accoridng to the Quran

Baal wrote:

Maybe they did not own a lean camel? but many of them were kings of their own people, they owned ALL the lean camels they needed.


dismissed

Baal wrote:

What you should concern yourself Ahmed is the following, why in the beginning muhammad told the muslims to face jerusalem, and then in less then 13 years, muhammad went back and told people to face kaaba.


where Mohammed said to face jerusalem?

any hearsay hadith is dismissed as you know

try to talk Quran only as I do

the first Qiblah was never said by Mohamed, when he was born, it seems that the people were facing jerusalem

now when the qiblah was changed, again it was not due to what Mohammed said, it is due to what Allah said in the Quran
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:18 am    Post subject: Re: Hello, Ahmed Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Hello BMZ

I would be a hypocrite if I preach freedom for all and then deny your freedom!

Also, I must say that I find fire-snake to be a simpleton.


Thanks for clarifying that.

As I finished reading the second line, I sprayed tea all over my keyboard. You chose the right word.  

BMZ

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:21 am    Post subject: Ahmed Reply with quote

I can't access that link. Is the topic still there? Under what topic?

BMZ

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
Maybe they did not own a lean camel?


Why does it have to be a lean camel? Won't a fat one do the same?

BMZ



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