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AhmedBahgat
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:33 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
it is you who claimed the Quran to be making things clear, now I'm asking you to please show me where in the Arabic Quran we read as such

when you fail to do so I will answer your question regarding if the Quran make things clear or not

cheers


OK, for example verse 1 of Surat Yusuf - here are three translations:

012.001
YUSUFALI: A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book.
PICKTHAL: Alif. Lam. Ra. These are verse of the Scripture that maketh plain.
SHAKIR: Alif Lam Ra. These are the verses of the Book that makes (things) manifest.

And here is the tafseer of As-Sabuni - and I quote:

ďKitabun Mubeen, means miraculous in its clarity, blindingly obvious in itís evidences and proofs, clear in itís meaning, no doubt about itís facts and no confusion in itís details.Ē

But let me assume that these people are wrong - and only you are right Ahmad.

Tell me what point are you trying to make? Are you saying the Qur'an not a clear book and does not make things clear?


Hello Hassan

I'm not sure what Ahmed means when he's stipulating that "Kitabun Mubeen" means:

Ahmed wrote:
1) The Obvious Book
2) The Clear Book
3) The Evident Book
4) The Manifest Book


In relation to fx the serpent it seems that he argues that it means that we are all able to see that it's a book (or scripture). Though this would mean that it was a scripture from day-one in this world, which it itself state it is not. Furthermore it seems like a silly statement repeating over and over again; "See it's scriptures/a book". The statement that it is a clear book, understood as a book easy to understand or a book that explains things, would make more sense in a religious perspective.

Concerning the quran not being a clear book he argued this:

Quote:
The Quran only makes things clear for the ones who sincerely want to be guided for the ones who already believed in the Quran and recognised its calibre that it is from Allah not from a bunch of humans, all the others who follow man made conjectures without being qualified by the Quran will have a seal on their minds, and hearts and they will never be able to understand it, the Quran does not make things clear as it does not really show me how to fix my car, even the scientific facts mentioned in it was put in an unclear manner which sure to serve the purpose of testing and I have no problem with that, in fact the guided ones will see those scientific miracles clearly while others will never be able to comprehend it, but what I found that the Quran does is this:

Verily this Qur'an doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;

[The Quran ; 17:9]

إِنَّ هَذَا الْقُرْآنَ يِهْدِي لِلَّتِي هِيَ أَقْوَمُ وَيُبَشِّرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ الَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ الصَّالِحَاتِ أَنَّ لَهُمْ أَجْرًا كَبِيرًا (9)


Ie. a circular argument that the quran is clear, but only if you believe it's clear. Again there's only "scientific miracles" in the book if you believe and is guided that there's "scientific miracles" in the book.

Peace



TV

you need to butt out, the message in 17:9 is for the BELIEVERS, not you

cheers
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AhmedBahgat
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
what I'm saying that I will give one more shot at hitting her to make her save herelf


cosmicdancer wrote:
I can't imagine hitting one's wife is ever going to work under any circumstances - and I have certainly never heard of any.


I certainly heard of many


cosmicdancer wrote:
But I can imagine many men using this verse as an excuse to mistreat their wives - and I certainly do know of many such cases. (my father being one.)



so?, will they escape Allah?

of course not if He exists, see the keyword you used, mistreat their wives, i.e. accoridng to 4:128-129, the husbands are guilty of ILL CONDUCT, hahahahahaah

cosmicdancer wrote:
Let me ask you this Ahmad - and please think about it honestly before replying. Don't you think over the 1400 years since this verse was 'revealed' - it has done more harm (by allowing bad Muslims to use it as an excuse to beat up their wives over trivial things) than good (by solving marital problems)?


Not really, because the bad people will beat their wives regardless, hahahahahah, see, did you read the domestic violence stats I posted earlier?

cosmicdancer wrote:

Be honest?


of course I'm, there is no reason for me to be dishonest, this is because I fear Allah and I fear no human
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:


of course the Quran does not make things clear for the Kafiroon nor the Mushrikoon,

are you kiddin me pal to think that for a kafir like you it should make things clear, haha, very funny mate

cheers


So you're saying only those who already believe find the Qur'an obvious.

While those who don't believe do not find it obvious.

Then how is the Qur'an supposed to convince those who don't believe?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:

cosmicdancer wrote:
I can't imagine hitting one's wife is ever going to work under any circumstances - and I have certainly never heard of any.


I certainly heard of many


Could you relate some? I'd be interested to hear how hitting one's wife has saved a marriage.

AhmedBahgat wrote:
the bad people will beat their wives regardless, hahahahahah


Having divine sanction for hitting doesn't help. From my own experience (my wife worked with Muslim women's refuge) this verse is used as an excuse a great many times.

Can you say truthfully that this verse has not made things worse?

AhmedBahgat wrote:
did you read the domestic violence stats I posted earlier?


Anyone with any experience of Muslim communities will tell you that official statistics mean very little. All the women my wife worked with did not appear on any statistics.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains - did you see Marwa replied to this video!

I tried to be as diplomatic as I could.

I think she has one eye on people looking at her and how she reacts.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:


of course the Quran does not make things clear for the Kafiroon nor the Mushrikoon,

are you kiddin me pal to think that for a kafir like you it should make things clear, haha, very funny mate

cheers


cosmicdancer wrote:
So you're saying only those who already believe find the Qur'an obvious.


Of course, hence their belief

cosmicdancer wrote:

While those who don't believe do not find it obvious.


Of course, hence their disbelief

cosmicdancer wrote:

Then how is the Qur'an supposed to convince those who don't believe?


If they are not baised and arrogant ot the message and submit to the one and only God, I'm sure He will make it obvious to them

don't you know that Allah hates the arrogant against His message?

did you even read about the seal and veil upon the disbelievers?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:

cosmicdancer wrote:
I can't imagine hitting one's wife is ever going to work under any circumstances - and I have certainly never heard of any.


I certainly heard of many


cosmicdancer wrote:

Could you relate some?



No, I won't disclose the family secrets that I know about some

cosmicdancer wrote:

I'd be interested to hear how hitting one's wife has saved a marriage.


simple the wife was insisting on her conduct, the husband tried to advice her polietly, she insisted on her ill conduct the husband left the bed, yet she insisted on her ill conduct, the hudband had enough and beat her with firm threat that this is the last time and she will be thrown in the streets and not see her children again, the wife fixed her ill conduct, and the marriage survived

now tell me pal, what motivate the non Muslim woman and men to bash their partners?

AhmedBahgat wrote:
the bad people will beat their wives regardless, hahahahahah



cosmicdancer wrote:
Having divine sanction for hitting doesn't help. From my own experience (my wife worked with Muslim women's refuge) this verse is used as an excuse a great many times.


Well, it seems that you and your wife and may other so called Muslim cannot use the same verse to expose any ill doing by the husband

cosmicdancer wrote:

Can you say truthfully that this verse has not made things worse?


100%


AhmedBahgat wrote:
did you read the domestic violence stats I posted earlier?


cosmicdancer wrote:

Anyone with any experience of Muslim communities will tell you that official statistics mean very little. All the women my wife worked with did not appear on any statistics.


prove it or shut up
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:

If they are not baised and arrogant ot the message and submit to the one and only God, I'm sure He will make it obvious to them


But I thought you just said that if they don't believe it is not obvious to them - so I don't understand what you are saying here?

Do you mean they must believe first? Or simply show sincerity or honesty etc...?

What if they still don't believe - despite their sincerity and honesty...?

Also how come there are Muslims themselves who are very sincere and honest - but don't find the Qur'an 'obvious' and lose their faith in it?

Did God not make it obvious to them?

Why?

Why doesn't God make it obvious to everyone?

Are all those who don't find the Qur'an obvious, insincere, dishonest, deceitful and arrogant?

Are all those who see it as obvious, sincere, honest, truthful and humble?

Do you regard yourself as humble or arrogant?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As usual Ahmed, you try to fill one hole by digging another hole.
Quote:
simple the wife was insisting on her conduct, the husband tried to advice her polietly, she insisted on her ill conduct the husband left the bed, yet she insisted on her ill conduct, the hudband had enough and beat her with firm threat that this is the last time and she will be thrown in the streets and not see her children again, the wife fixed her ill conduct, and the marriage survived

now tell me pal, what motivate the non Muslim woman and men to bash their partners?

Yes, she will be thrown on the streets because the alimony is for the period of Iddat or 1 year if the country is not following the Sharia closely.

Also she won't see her children because of the Sharia.

Thank you Ahmed for clarifying, I hope women are reading what Ahmed wrote. And know that Ahmed is one of the most honest muslims I have met and talked to. of course he is not 100% honest but he is the most honest I have met.

You turn 40 or 50 or 60 in a country that does not favor your education or your career. And if your husband wills, you will be out in the street and receive an alimony for 1 year. Unless your husband is a decent human being and decide to pay you more of course. But that will be more like charity and the amount will be up to his judgement.

Frankly, he does not even 'need' to throw you out on the street. He only needs to threaten you he will. As long as you are home cleaning the house and making his tea. And if he makes some more money, as long as you accept a Second wife.


Of course when he remarries, the new wife will not at all, appreciate too much money being spent on you, the old wife.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:

Can you say truthfully that this verse has not made things worse?


100%


Wow - you are 100% certain.

What is this iron-clad evidence you have that proves 100% that this verse has never made things worse?

AhmedBahgat wrote:


cosmicdancer wrote:

Anyone with any experience of Muslim communities will tell you that official statistics mean very little. All the women my wife worked with did not appear on any statistics.


prove it or shut up


Why do you have to talk in such a rude and arrogant manner.

I just said it was not on any stats but my own and my wife's experience - and so I cannot provide any proof. But I am still entitled to relate it - and I don't have to "shut up" as you say.

Just as you are entitled to give your 'opinion' that this verse has never made things worse.


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Last edited by cosmicdancer on Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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