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All_Brains Vs. Ahmed Bahgat
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject: All_Brains Vs. Ahmed Bahgat  Reply with quote

Hello Ahmed

This is a post to get things going. I will post my first point of debate in an hour or so.

Regards
All_Brains
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear all

Ahmed and I are exhausted tonight! We will both tomorrow resume our discussion.

Regards all.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:48 pm    Post subject: Re: All_Brains Vs. Ahmed Bahgat Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Hello Ahmed

This is a post to get things going. I will post my first point of debate in an hour or so.

Regards
All_Brains


Hello A_B

Thanks for the invitaion, while I;m busy and currently suffering from the flu, I will do my best to be prompt and reply asap to any issue you raise

here is how I would like the shape of this discussion to be:

1) No personal insults or mocking
2) No degradation to Allah or any of His messengers or prophets

3) You can mock the Quran if you wish but you must provide your merit for doing so

4) I'm not required to prove my belief nor I ask anyone to prove his/hers, it is the people who want to discuss my belief and I will give them the opportunity of doing so, this means any mocking to my belief won't be overlooked, I believe this is fair, because I;m not interested to discuss matter with those who only want to make fun of my belief, for me anyone have the limited freedom to believe in whatever, a cow, a human, a planet, or an imaginary god, therefore targetting my faith out of all differnt faithes on earth will be considered an act of perpetration and according to the Quran, I should never dialogue with such people, it;s eaiither I leave them or I fight them and believe me I will fight and fight hard, therefor the matter is all in the hands of all those who ant to dicuss my religion (my belief) with me, if they respect themselves and act professionally, I won't have anyother option but to reply the same, if the mock and make fun of my belief then I will come back hitting really hard

5) This discussion maybe about the Quran or anything that criticise the Quran, I don't want to mix it with any hadith discussion, regarding any hadith discussion however, I only discuss if they are required or not, I don't discuss any morals, teachings, allegation, authenticity and all such waste of time matters in any hadith unless I'm forced by any kafir or mushrik to do so and again I will come back hard turning them to shreds, in a way dicussing the hadith with me or even with any hadith worshipper will bring no fruit to any one, so we better avoide it

if you would like to add any other suggestions, be my guest, I would like to say that we should allow a bit of sense of humour and some catchy words, I mean by catchy, like dumb, idiot, etc etc, as long as no offence will be taken and no hard feeling will be left, it is not like we are in kindergarten

Salam
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: All_Brains Vs. Ahmed Bahgat Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Hello Ahmed

This is a post to get things going. I will post my first point of debate in an hour or so.

Regards
All_Brains


Hello A_B

Thanks for the invitaion, while I;m busy and currently suffering from the flu, I will do my best to be prompt and reply asap to any issue you raise

here is how I would like the shape of this discussion to be:

1) No personal insults or mocking
2) No degradation to Allah or any of His messengers or prophets

3) You can mock the Quran if you wish but you must provide your merit for doing so

4) I'm not required to prove my belief nor I ask anyone to prove his/hers, it is the people who want to discuss my belief and I will give them the opportunity of doing so, this means any mocking to my belief won't be overlooked, I believe this is fair, because I;m not interested to discuss matter with those who only want to make fun of my belief, for me anyone have the limited freedom to believe in whatever, a cow, a human, a planet, or an imaginary god, therefore targetting my faith out of all differnt faithes on earth will be considered an act of perpetration and according to the Quran, I should never dialogue with such people, it;s eaiither I leave them or I fight them and believe me I will fight and fight hard, therefor the matter is all in the hands of all those who ant to dicuss my religion (my belief) with me, if they respect themselves and act professionally, I won't have anyother option but to reply the same, if the mock and make fun of my belief then I will come back hitting really hard

5) This discussion maybe about the Quran or anything that criticise the Quran, I don't want to mix it with any hadith discussion, regarding any hadith discussion however, I only discuss if they are required or not, I don't discuss any morals, teachings, allegation, authenticity and all such waste of time matters in any hadith unless I'm forced by any kafir or mushrik to do so and again I will come back hard turning them to shreds, in a way dicussing the hadith with me or even with any hadith worshipper will bring no fruit to any one, so we better avoide it

if you would like to add any other suggestions, be my guest, I would like to say that we should allow a bit of sense of humour and some catchy words, I mean by catchy, like dumb, idiot, etc etc, as long as no offence will be taken and no hard feeling will be left, it is not like we are in kindergarten

Salam


Hello Ahmed

As you know me I never insult or mock, it's not in my nature. I also promise not to pass any derogatory comments onto your God, Muhammad or even his alleged book.

I am a big fan of humour and a little bit of it brightens the heated debate and remind us all of our humanity.

I am thick skinned and you can call my ideas idiotic or dumb of you think so.

I have been thinking about this and I thought I could post according to the sequence of the surahs, so my first point of discussion will start with "Suraht Al-Baqara". I will pose my first question re the Quran in general in the next post.
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Last edited by All_Brains on Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point of discssion # 1

Dear Ahmed

When and how do you think the Quran we have today was first compiled?

And how can you be so sure that the words within have not been changed at the point of compilation?

Regards
All_Brains
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point of discssion # 1

All_Brains wrote:
Dear Ahmed


Salam A_B

All_Brains wrote:
When and how do you think the Quran we have today was first compiled?


If I take it that you mean by compiling the Quran is collecting the Quran in one book, then it was never the task of anyone but Allah to compile the Quran in one book, this is what He said, letís have a look:

16: Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it,
17: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.
18: Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.
19: Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.

[The Quran ; 75:16:19]

لَا تُحَرِّكْ بِهِ لِسَانَكَ لِتَعْجَلَ بِهِ (16)
إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا جَمْعَهُ وَقُرْآنَهُ (17)
فَإِذَا قَرَأْنَاهُ فَاتَّبِعْ قُرْآنَهُ (18)
ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا بَيَانَهُ (19)

-> The prophet was a bit worried that he may forget the words been taught to him, so he used to keep saying the words quickly, sort of to memorise it, Allah told him that he does not need to worry about that because collecting it (i.e. indirectly reserving it) is UPON Him: Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it, the Ďití in the verse is referring to the Quran, then Allah told him why he should not do that: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it, i.e. Allah was always in charge to collect/compile the Quran in one book, this does not mean that He came down and collected it, rather HE MADE OTHER PEOPLE OR CREATURES to do it, remember the verse that I showed about killing, where Allah says that we didnít kill them rather He did, that is exactly the same, Uthman didnít collect the Quran rather Allah made him to do it and this means that Allah was in charge in collecting the Quran, see how in the next verse Allah says the following: Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation., of course Allah does not physically recite the Quran to us rather He makes others to do it, and again because He made them to do it, then it is Him Who did it. the final verse also tells us that explaining the Quran is on Allah as well: Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it. and again, it does not mean that Allah will come down to us and explain the Quran to us, rather He makes others to do it.

From the above I believe without a doubt that Allah caused Uthman to do it, therefore to answer your question, the Quran was compiled during Uthman time and it was compiled the way he was made to do it. and since then we can see that the Quran stayed unchanged, this is a miracle on its own and indeed confirms the above verses, that it was Allah Who collected it and it is Allah who is going to explain it, see how the above verses were directed at the prophet himself, i.e. explaining the Quran was not even a task for prophet Mohammed

All_Brains wrote:
And how can you be so sure that the words within have not been changed at the point of compilation?


well, if it was the humans who did it, Iím sure they would have argued with each other and everyone would have gone with what makes them joyful, for me because Allah was in charge of compiling it then I have to be assured within my belief that it is the exact words He wants all humanity from Uthman time to read, if it was really the humans who collected it, i.e. the Quran does not have the above verses then I might have some doubt that the humans who collected it screwed it up

All_Brains wrote:

Regards
All_Brains


Cheers
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:


-> The prophet was a bit worried that he may forget the words been taught to him, so he used to keep saying the words quickly, sort of to memorise it, Allah told him that he does not need to worry about that because collecting it (i.e. indirectly reserving it) is UPON Him: Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it, the Ďití in the verse is referring to the Quran, then Allah told him why he should not do that: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it, i.e. Allah was always in charge to collect/compile the Quran in one book, this does not mean that He came down and collected it, rather HE MADE OTHER PEOPLE OR CREATURES to do it, remember the verse that I showed about killing, where Allah says that we didnít kill them rather He did, that is exactly the same, Uthman didnít collect the Quran rather Allah made him to do it and this means that Allah was in charge in collecting the Quran, see how in the next verse Allah says the following: Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation., of course Allah does not physically recite the Quran to us rather He makes others to do it, and again because He made them to do it, then it is Him Who did it. the final verse also tells us that explaining the Quran is on Allah as well: Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it. and again, it does not mean that Allah will come down to us and explain the Quran to us, rather He makes others to do it.

From the above I believe without a doubt that Allah caused Uthman to do it, therefore to answer your question, the Quran was compiled during Uthman time and it was compiled the way he was made to do it. and since then we can see that the Quran stayed unchanged, this is a miracle on its own and indeed confirms the above verses, that it was Allah Who collected it and it is Allah who is going to explain it, see how the above verses were directed at the prophet himself, i.e. explaining the Quran was not even a task for prophet Mohammed


Cool! So you believe Uthman collected the Quran upon Allah's inspiration. Why do you think the Quran was not compiled in a book during Muhammad's life or the first two khalifas? Also, why did Uthman burn many surahs and other versions of the Quran?

Quote:
well, if it was the humans who did it, Iím sure they would have argued with each other and everyone would have gone with what makes them joyful, for me because Allah was in charge of compiling it then I have to be assured within my belief that it is the exact words He wants all humanity from Uthman time to read, if it was really the humans who collected it, i.e. the Quran does not have the above verses then I might have some doubt that the humans who collected it screwed it up.


1. So if you believe that humans were responsible for compiling the Quran, how would you know for sure that some did not forget the Quran? Had corrupt nature? Wanted to apply their own agenda?
Quote:


if it was really the humans who collected it, i.e. the Quran does not have the above verses then I might have some doubt that the humans who collected it screwed it up.


2. Ahmed, examine your above words up here! I am disputing with you the fact the Quran could be man-made and your proof is a verse from the disputed Quran!!

How do you know that the above verse wasn't inserted on purpose to get you to believe what you believe?

Also Ahmed as a psychologist I have to tell you that the brain and speech usually slow down when trying to retain and memorise, it's a natural brain reaction. I have never seen anyone memorise by repeating words fast!!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
-> The prophet was a bit worried that he may forget the words been taught to him, so he used to keep saying the words quickly, sort of to memorise it, Allah told him that he does not need to worry about that because collecting it (i.e. indirectly reserving it) is UPON Him: Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it, the Ďití in the verse is referring to the Quran, then Allah told him why he should not do that: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it, i.e. Allah was always in charge to collect/compile the Quran in one book, this does not mean that He came down and collected it, rather HE MADE OTHER PEOPLE OR CREATURES to do it, remember the verse that I showed about killing, where Allah says that we didnít kill them rather He did, that is exactly the same, Uthman didnít collect the Quran rather Allah made him to do it and this means that Allah was in charge in collecting the Quran, see how in the next verse Allah says the following: Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation., of course Allah does not physically recite the Quran to us rather He makes others to do it, and again because He made them to do it, then it is Him Who did it. the final verse also tells us that explaining the Quran is on Allah as well: Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it. and again, it does not mean that Allah will come down to us and explain the Quran to us, rather He makes others to do it.

From the above I believe without a doubt that Allah caused Uthman to do it, therefore to answer your question, the Quran was compiled during Uthman time and it was compiled the way he was made to do it. and since then we can see that the Quran stayed unchanged, this is a miracle on its own and indeed confirms the above verses, that it was Allah Who collected it and it is Allah who is going to explain it, see how the above verses were directed at the prophet himself, i.e. explaining the Quran was not even a task for prophet Mohammed


All_Brains wrote:
Cool! So you believe Uthman collected the Quran upon Allah's inspiration.


Salam A_B

Not just I believe in that rather I firmly believe to be the case, Allah may inspire any human if He desires

All_Brains wrote:
Why do you think the Quran was not compiled in a book during Muhammad's life or the first two khalifas?


There might be many reasons for that according to Allah plan, something beyond my capabilities to know, however as far as I believe there was a complete version of the Quran that was kept with one of his wives, but regardless of that, it may be a test from Allah to see what the people after Mohammed will do, letís look at the following verse:

And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed before him; so if he died or is killed, you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will not harm Allah a thing, and Allah will reward the grateful.

[The Quran ; 3:144]

وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ أَفَإِن مَّاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ انقَلَبْتُمْ عَلَى أَعْقَابِكُمْ وَمَن يَنقَلِبْ عَلَىَ عَقِبَيْهِ فَلَن يَضُرَّ اللّهَ شَيْئًا وَسَيَجْزِي اللّهُ الشَّاكِرِينَ (144)

-> †See the huge warning from Allah regarding what the believers may do after Mohammed death: And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed before him; so if he died or is killed, you turn back upon your heels?, clearly Mohammed death is a fitnah (a test) to those who lived with him and continued to live after his death, some of them indeed turned back upon their heels, that is why Allah is telling them: And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will not harm Allah a thing

The message from the above verse is clear that Mohammed is a messenger exactly as those messengers passed away before him, and this is where the test might have been planned by Allah regarding the Quran, I believe all Allah test is to expose the freaks to themselves on the JD, i.e. on the JD the freaks wonít be able to deny their crimes

All_Brains wrote:
Also, why did Uthman burn many surahs and other versions of the Quran?


Not really sure that there was other versions, but I will accept that there was some discrepancies in the memory of those who memorised it and wrote some of it down on whatever, now I believe that according to Allah plan of reserving it unchanged, all other discrepancies that might have been written down by others without any authority from Allah †must be destroyed and of course the best destruction for papers is fire

Quote:
well, if it was the humans who did it, Iím sure they would have argued with each other and everyone would have gone with what makes them joyful, for me because Allah was in charge of compiling it then I have to be assured within my belief that it is the exact words He wants all humanity from Uthman time to read, if it was really the humans who collected it, i.e. the Quran does not have the above verses then I might have some doubt that the humans who collected it screwed it up.



All_Brains wrote:
1. So if you believe that humans were responsible for compiling the Quran, how would you know for sure that some did not forget the Quran?


That is a question to which I can not provide a proof for my answer, my answer is simply that I firmly BELIEVE to be the case yet I can not provide assurance to it, therefore Iím not asking others to believe the same

Believe †me if I have a assurance or anyone for that matter has then I guess believing in Allah will be very easy, right?

All_Brains wrote:
Had corrupt nature? Wanted to apply their own agenda?


Well, kafirs may believe as such, for me as a believer I believe in the contrary, and that is the limited free will given to all of us.

Quote:
if it was really the humans who collected it, i.e. the Quran does not have the above verses then I might have some doubt that the humans who collected it screwed it up.


All_Brains wrote:
2. Ahmed, examine your above words up here! I am disputing with you the fact the Quran could be man-made and your proof is a verse from the disputed Quran!!


you are still missing the point, firstly there is no dispute, Iím only explaining what I believe in, now for you as an individual who have your own mind and life, why my belief bothers you to a degree that you want to dispute it with me?, your belief does not bother me the slightest unless you attack my religion which you donít do I guess, therefore there should be nothing between us to dispute

Now for the Quran being a †man made, well if Iím neutral then I say yes it is a possibility, from a believer point of view, it is not even possible, for a kafir point of view it is certainly the case.

SEE

Now my question to you, what are you going to do if it was not a human made?

Are you prepared for that?

And that is the toughest question a kafir will face

Let me tell you that there is one answer that I get from all kafirs regarding that tough question, they simply reply in arrogance that they wonít care and will be delighted to go to hell, will you answer the same?

Now if the Quran indeed man made, what do you think that I lost?

Let me tell you mate that I will lose absolutely nothing, even all the time I spent defending something that may not exist, I was never forced to do it and I enjoyed every bit of it, letís just assume it to be another type of career or a hobby in this life

All_Brains wrote:
How do you know that the above verse wasn't inserted on purpose to get you to believe what you believe?


Look, the kafirs say the exact same regarding almost all the verses in the Quran, for example they say the same about the verse that Allah is in charge of guarding it against corruption, they also say the same about the hell verses, etc etc

It is impossible for a human to think of all such possibilities and put in a book like that, especially that human didnít know how to read nor write. I guess you will come and say the Ummi verses were also inserted by humans to make us believe that Mohammed could have never invented the Quran, hahahahah

All_Brains wrote:
Also Ahmed as a psychologist


Look mate, with my total respect to your profession, I don't buy what the doctors say most of the times despite my brother is a doctor

Whatever you are going to say, your profession wonít be able to find an answer to this question:

WHAT IFÖ.?

See

All_Brains wrote:
I have to tell you that the brain and speech usually slow down when trying to retain and memorise, it's a natural brain reaction. I have never seen anyone memorise by repeating words fast!!


Excuse me sir, I tried to memorise many quran verses all my life and the way I used to do it which is NATURAL was to repeat the same verse hundreds of times quickly

The above is really irrelevant man

Salam
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great! Let's move on after we have both displayed our positions on topic # 1:

1. Ahmed "believes" that the Quran is from Allah and was compiled by Allah through people. Whilst there is no proof that the Quran is from Allah, belief and only belief can assist you was such predicament.

2. All_Brains thinks that the Quran is man-made, as it's very suspicious for me because it was only compiled years after the death of Muhammad, have surahs within to prove its validity and at the time of its compilation many other versions were burned, including the one with his wife (Hafsah)!

To summarise, Ahmed believes with no proof and all_brains thinks with little proof. Only one way we can make certain of the point of discussion, by examining the Quran itself.

I will start from the begging of the Quran and through in topic #2 shortly.

Thanks Ahmed for your words and thought!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point of discussion # 2

Quote:
خَتَمَ اللّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عظِيمٌ

Shakir 2:7 Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

yusufali 2:7 Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Pickthal 2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

Al-Hilali 2:7 All‚h has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting All‚h's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.


Ahmed

The fact that Allah is supposed to be omniscient makes the above verse a very unfair one.

Why would Allah set a seal on people heart to prevent them from believing? And since he is aware of the outcome of all scenarios, then someone going to hell-fire is pretty much designed to do so by his creator!!!

This does not make sense, please help us understand!


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