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All_Brains Vs. Ahmed Bahgat
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AhmedBahgat
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Point of discussion # 2

Quote:
خَتَمَ اللّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عظِيمٌ

Shakir 2:7 Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

yusufali 2:7 Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Pickthal 2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

Al-Hilali 2:7 All‚h has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting All‚h's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torture.


All_Brains wrote:

Ahmed


Salam A_B

All_Brains wrote:
The fact that Allah is supposed to be omniscient makes the above verse a very unfair one.


2:7 can never suggest that Allah is unfair, in fact you missed the reason that Allah stated in the previous verse to why He will set such seal on their hearts, ears and visions, let me bring the verse in here:

Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe.

[Al Quran ; 2:6]
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ (6)

-> See what 2:6 is telling us regarding the attitude of those who have chosen disbelief: Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe., i.e. they care less about the warning, i.e. they donít give a rat arse about such warning, i.e. they are arrogant and because of that Allah is going to make it even harder on them to believe, they bloody earned it with their clear cut arrogance of not caring about the message and the warning sent

All_Brains wrote:
Why would Allah set a seal on people heart to prevent them from believing?


Because according to 2:6, it is the same for them if you warn them or not, they are clear cut arrogant and wonít believe

All_Brains wrote:
And since he is ware of the outcome of all scenarios, then someone going to hell-fire is pretty much designed to so by his creator!!!


Indeed, here is the verses to prove it, this is a big one:

13: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together.

14: Then taste because of your forgetting to the Meeting of this Day of yours, surely! We too will forget you, so taste the abiding torture for what you used to do.

15: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the prais of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.

16: Their sides forsake their beds, to call upon  their Lord in fear and hope, and they spend  out of what We have bestowed on them.

17: No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.

18: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they.

19: As for those who have believed and have done good deeds, for them are Gardens as a reward for what they used to do.

20: And as for those who have transgressed, their abode will be the Fire, every time they wish to get away from it, they will be returned back to it, and it will be said to them: Taste the torture of the fire which you used to deny.

21: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may  return.

22: And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals.

[Al Quran ; 32:13-22]

وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَآتَيْنَا كُلَّ نَفْسٍ هُدَاهَا وَلَكِنْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ مِنِّي لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ (13)
فَذُوقُوا بِمَا نَسِيتُمْ لِقَاء يَوْمِكُمْ هَذَا إِنَّا نَسِينَاكُمْ وَذُوقُوا عَذَابَ الْخُلْدِ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ (14)
إِنَّمَا يُؤْمِنُ بِآيَاتِنَا الَّذِينَ إِذَا ذُكِّرُوا بِهَا خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَسَبَّحُوا بِحَمْدِ رَبِّهِمْ وَهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ (15)
تَتَجَافَى جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ الْمَضَاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ خَوْفًا وَطَمَعًا وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ (16)
فَلَا تَعْلَمُ نَفْسٌ مَّا أُخْفِيَ لَهُم مِّن قُرَّةِ أَعْيُنٍ جَزَاء بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (17)
أَفَمَن كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا كَمَن كَانَ فَاسِقًا لَّا يَسْتَوُونَ (18)
أَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ فَلَهُمْ جَنَّاتُ الْمَأْوَى نُزُلًا بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (19)
وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فَسَقُوا فَمَأْوَاهُمُ النَّارُ كُلَّمَا أَرَادُوا أَن يَخْرُجُوا مِنْهَا أُعِيدُوا فِيهَا وَقِيلَ لَهُمْ ذُوقُوا عَذَابَ النَّارِ الَّذِي كُنتُم بِهِ تُكَذِّبُونَ (20)
وَلَنُذِيقَنَّهُمْ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَدْنَى دُونَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَكْبَرِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ (21)
وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّن ذُكِّرَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِ ثُمَّ أَعْرَضَ عَنْهَا إِنَّا مِنَ الْمُجْرِمِينَ مُنتَقِمُونَ (22)

-> See what Allah says: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance,, of course Allah can force everyone of us to believe but the whole thing of creating us will be a joke, as well His laws will be contradicted because when he created Adam and his partner He told them: but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together., see how Allah is saying that His word is the truth, i.e. there will be no change to His words and what He said MUST HAPPEN, now it is not like He will randomly those whom He will make to believe rather He will help those sincere ones who have realized the possible high stakes that must come to pass if Allah exists. Of course Allah wonít help the arrogant who only cared less about the warning, why should He?

-> Here is a reason to why those hell bound criminals must suffer: Then taste because of your forgetting to the Meeting of this Day of yours,, SEE, they forgot the meeting of the day of jusgement, see how Allah called YOUR DAY, i.e. it is a day for everyone of us that must live, there are those who always remembered that day, and there are those who do not give a rat arse about such horrible day of theirs, i.e. they forgot that day of theirs and therefore: surely! We too will forget you, so taste the abiding torture for what you used to do.

-> Here is  an example of how nopt to be arrogant towards the signs of Allah: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant., HO CLEAR IS THAT MAN?, well you can see many of those arrogant freaks who not just ignore the message BUT MOCK IT AS WELL, I guess they started to mock it because of the seal set upon them due to their arrogance, now they will be indulged for the rest of their lives in mocking the message so when their day comes, they will earn hell fair and square

-> Those who are not arrogant towards the signs of Allah are those whose: Their sides forsake their beds, to call upon their Lord in fear and hope, and they spend out of what We have bestowed on them. unlike those freaks who only mock the message like many on FFI web site and even on this web site, Baal is a clear example of such criminals mentioned in the Quran, on the JD he must be guilty as charged, impossible that someone like Baal and a believer who humbled himself to Allah to be equal on the JD, in fact if Baal is not punished by Allah then this will be not fair for those who have believed and humbled themselves to Him

-> For those who have believed they wonít be able to even comprehend the reward waiting for them: No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.

-> Remember what I asked you a minute ago, Is Baal equal to someone who have believed?, that is exactly what the Quran is asking you too: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they., see how Allah is giving the answer at the same time, this is because IT IS THE ONLY ANSWER, a believer can never be equal to a disbeliever

-> And the reward of those who have believers is assured again: As for those who have believed and have done good deeds, for them are Gardens as a reward for what they used to do.

-> Now for someone like Baal: And as for those who have transgressed, their abode will be the Fire, every time they wish to get away from it, they will be returned back to it, and it will be said to them: Taste the torture of the fire which you used to deny., what a humiliating end it is going to be for him, man

-> Now here is something very interesting, it actually proves the mercy of Allah towards those whom He set seal upon them: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may  return., see Allah still trying to guide those arrogant freaks, but His guidance is going to be through the hard way for them, i.e. they will be hit with things in this life: in order that they may  return.

-> Here is a description of a criminal like Baal And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals., see why I called him criminal, it was not me, it was the Quran who called the likes of him as such, I only told him what the Quran is saying about him, now criminal means that a crime has been committed which means retribution must be enforced, that is the human law, pal

All_Brains wrote:
This does not make sense, please help us understand!


I hope I did

Salam
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
2:7 can never suggest that Allah is unfair, in fact you missed the reason that Allah stated in the previous verse to why He will set such seal on their hearts, ears and visions, let me bring the verse in here:

Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe.

[Al Quran ; 2:6]
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ (6)

-> See what 2:6 is telling us regarding the attitude of those who have chosen disbelief: Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe., i.e. they care less about the warning, i.e. they donít give a rat arse about such warning, i.e. they are arrogant and because of that Allah is going to make it even harder on them to believe, they bloody earned it with their clear cut arrogance of not caring about the message and the warning sent


Ahmed

My problem with this logic is that you and Allah think that people disbelieve out of wickedness and evilness. There are many people who won't believe because they are not convinced or Islam does not fit their moral conviction. These people can also be very serious and have studied all religions with sincerity.

Also, I am not quite sure why would Allah give people just one chance at making arguably the biggest decision in their life, then when rejected, sets a seal on their hearts, so that they can be doomed for eternity.

Quote:
Indeed, here is the verses to prove it, this is a big one:

13: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together.

14: Then taste because of your forgetting to the Meeting of this Day of yours, surely! We too will forget you, so taste the abiding torture for what you used to do.

15: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the prais of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.

16: Their sides forsake their beds, to call upon  their Lord in fear and hope, and they spend  out of what We have bestowed on them.

17: No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.

18: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they.

19: As for those who have believed and have done good deeds, for them are Gardens as a reward for what they used to do.

20: And as for those who have transgressed, their abode will be the Fire, every time they wish to get away from it, they will be returned back to it, and it will be said to them: Taste the torture of the fire which you used to deny.

21: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may  return.

22: And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals.

[Al Quran ; 32:13-22]

وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَآتَيْنَا كُلَّ نَفْسٍ هُدَاهَا وَلَكِنْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ مِنِّي لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ (13)
فَذُوقُوا بِمَا نَسِيتُمْ لِقَاء يَوْمِكُمْ هَذَا إِنَّا نَسِينَاكُمْ وَذُوقُوا عَذَابَ الْخُلْدِ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ (14)
إِنَّمَا يُؤْمِنُ بِآيَاتِنَا الَّذِينَ إِذَا ذُكِّرُوا بِهَا خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَسَبَّحُوا بِحَمْدِ رَبِّهِمْ وَهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ (15)
تَتَجَافَى جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ الْمَضَاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ خَوْفًا وَطَمَعًا وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ (16)
فَلَا تَعْلَمُ نَفْسٌ مَّا أُخْفِيَ لَهُم مِّن قُرَّةِ أَعْيُنٍ جَزَاء بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (17)
أَفَمَن كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا كَمَن كَانَ فَاسِقًا لَّا يَسْتَوُونَ (1Cool
أَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ فَلَهُمْ جَنَّاتُ الْمَأْوَى نُزُلًا بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (19)
وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فَسَقُوا فَمَأْوَاهُمُ النَّارُ كُلَّمَا أَرَادُوا أَن يَخْرُجُوا مِنْهَا أُعِيدُوا فِيهَا وَقِيلَ لَهُمْ ذُوقُوا عَذَابَ النَّارِ الَّذِي كُنتُم بِهِ تُكَذِّبُونَ (20)
وَلَنُذِيقَنَّهُمْ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَدْنَى دُونَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَكْبَرِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ (21)
وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّن ذُكِّرَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِ ثُمَّ أَعْرَضَ عَنْهَا إِنَّا مِنَ الْمُجْرِمِينَ مُنتَقِمُونَ (22)


Great Ahmed, so you believe your God created the vast majority of people just to be thrown in hell for eternity, having pre-designed their actions anyway!!!

Quote:
13: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together.


The above verse is pure evil Ahmed, it might as well be written by the devil. Luckily I don't believe in him either!

Quote:
-> See what Allah says: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance,, of course Allah can force everyone of us to believe but the whole thing of creating us will be a joke, as well His laws will be contradicted because when he created Adam and his partner He told them: but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together., see how Allah is saying that His word is the truth, i.e. there will be no change to His words and what He said MUST HAPPEN, now it is not like He will randomly those whom He will make to believe rather He will help those sincere ones who have realized the possible high stakes that must come to pass if Allah exists. Of course Allah wonít help the arrogant who only cared less about the warning, why should He?


And who pre-designed some people to be sincere and some people to be arrogant? If it's us, then God isn't Omniscient, and If it's God, then he is unfair to torture people who just did what he made them to do!!!

Quote:
-> Here is  an example of how nopt to be arrogant towards the signs of Allah: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant., HO CLEAR IS THAT MAN?, well you can see many of those arrogant freaks who not just ignore the message BUT MOCK IT AS WELL, I guess they started to mock it because of the seal set upon them due to their arrogance, now they will be indulged for the rest of their lives in mocking the message so when their day comes, they will earn hell fair and square


Sure Ahmed, people see signs on daily basis and everyone is trying to decide, is it from Allah?Jesus?Yahweh?Shiva?Brahma? Or just nature and the physical rules of the universe

Quote:
Remember what I asked you a minute ago, Is Baal equal to someone who have believed?, that is exactly what the Quran is asking you too: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they., see how Allah is giving the answer at the same time, this is because IT IS THE ONLY ANSWER, a believer can never be equal to a disbeliever


Well, we have to be convinced first of the validity of the Quran before we can acknowledge such warnings.
Quote:

-> Now here is something very interesting, it actually proves the mercy of Allah towards those whom He set seal upon them: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may  return., see Allah still trying to guide those arrogant freaks, but His guidance is going to be through the hard way for them, i.e. they will be hit with things in this life: in order that they may  return.


Is this another word for Allah removing the set seal???

Quote:
-> Here is a description of a criminal like Baal And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals., see why I called him criminal, it was not me, it was the Quran who called the likes of him as such, I only told him what the Quran is saying about him, now criminal means that a crime has been committed which means retribution must be enforced, that is the human law, pal


Of course! That's what you believe. Baal though may disagree and think we all just going to die and rot in the ground!

As we both progress in the Quran discussion, readers will be able to read and take sides.

Thank you for putting in the effort and civilly fighting your cause!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Ahmed

Let's please allow one more round for the important topic. Please respond to my above post when you have time, then I'll sum it up. We can then move to point 3.

Regards
All_Brains
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
2:7 can never suggest that Allah is unfair, in fact you missed the reason that Allah stated in the previous verse to why He will set such seal on their hearts, ears and visions, let me bring the verse in here:

Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe.

[Al Quran ; 2:6]
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ (6)

-> See what 2:6 is telling us regarding the attitude of those who have chosen disbelief: Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe., i.e. they care less about the warning, i.e. they donít give a rat arse about such warning, i.e. they are arrogant and because of that Allah is going to make it even harder on them to believe, they bloody earned it with their clear cut arrogance of not caring about the message and the warning sent


All_Brains wrote:
Ahmed


Good morning A_B

All_Brains wrote:
My problem with this logic is that you and Allah think that people disbelieve out of wickedness and evilness.


Of course, they are also sick people who are not grateful to the God who created them and gave them to eyes, lips and a tongue, I as looking at the mirror the other day, and I started investigating my face as if it is an electronic device that been invented, and I was so impressed to how our bodies are wired for all organs to work together, then my thoughts went further to how I have been existing all that long, I just could not find a possible way but the creation of God, everywhere I look I see the creation of Allah, it just canít be overlooked unless the onlookers are really sick, arrogant, doomed and ungrateful to the One Who made them

Yes I believe that the unbelievers do not believe out of sickness and according to Allah, He is going to punish them by increasing their sickness

All_Brains wrote:
There are many people who won't believe because they are not convinced or Islam does not fit their moral conviction.


The belief in God is not only Islam, there are millions before Islam who died believers, what they did as simple and costed nothing, they just listened to the warning of God without showing any arrogance †

All_Brains wrote:
These people can also be very serious and have studied all religions with sincerity.


But they have that touch of arrogance that the creation maybe a coincidence and not by God, those who want to believe must submit first that there must be One entity called God Who created all things that are working in such harmony

All_Brains wrote:
Also, I am not quite sure why would Allah give people just one chance at making arguably the biggest decision in their life, then when rejected, sets a seal on their hearts, so that they can be doomed for eternity.


Where it says that the people are given one chance?, Allah always gives the people many chances, the chances will be given all life long, up to shortly before they die, I know many who believed at the age of 70 and more, how do you think it happened to them while they had the seal for 70 years?, well, let me tell you why, because they dropped their arrogance and they changed, letís look at the following verse:

For his sake there are angels following one another, before him and behind him, who guard him by Allah's commandment; surely Allah does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition; and when Allah intends evil to a people, there is no averting it, and other than Him they have no protector.

[The Quran ; 13:11]

لَهُ مُعَقِّبَاتٌ مِّن بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَمِنْ خَلْفِهِ يَحْفَظُونَهُ مِنْ أَمْرِ اللّهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يُغَيِّرُ مَا بِقَوْمٍ حَتَّى يُغَيِّرُواْ مَا بِأَنْفُسِهِمْ وَإِذَا أَرَادَ اللّهُ بِقَوْمٍ سُوءًا فَلاَ مَرَدَّ لَهُ وَمَا لَهُم مِّن دُونِهِ مِن وَالٍ (11)

-> See, surely Allah does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition, now, if your current condition that you have the seal set upon you, it is going to stay as such unless you change you condition and believe in the one God sincerely then learn more about Him and Iím 100% sure He will help you. This is because you ill have no ULTIMATE protector other than Him: and other than Him they have no protector.

Quote:
Indeed, here is the verses to prove it, this is a big one:

13: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together.

14: Then taste because of your forgetting to the Meeting of this Day of yours, surely! We too will forget you, so taste the abiding torture for what you used to do.

15: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the prais of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.

16: Their sides forsake their beds, to call upon †their Lord in fear and hope, and they spend †out of what We have bestowed on them.

17: No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.

18: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they.

19: As for those who have believed and have done good deeds, for them are Gardens as a reward for what they used to do.

20: And as for those who have transgressed, their abode will be the Fire, every time they wish to get away from it, they will be returned back to it, and it will be said to them: Taste the torture of the fire which you used to deny.

21: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may †return.

22: And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals.

[Al Quran ; 32:13-22]

وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَآتَيْنَا كُلَّ نَفْسٍ هُدَاهَا وَلَكِنْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ مِنِّي لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ (13)
فَذُوقُوا بِمَا نَسِيتُمْ لِقَاء يَوْمِكُمْ هَذَا إِنَّا نَسِينَاكُمْ وَذُوقُوا عَذَابَ الْخُلْدِ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ (14)
إِنَّمَا يُؤْمِنُ بِآيَاتِنَا الَّذِينَ إِذَا ذُكِّرُوا بِهَا خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَسَبَّحُوا بِحَمْدِ رَبِّهِمْ وَهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ (15)
تَتَجَافَى جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ الْمَضَاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ خَوْفًا وَطَمَعًا وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ (16)
فَلَا تَعْلَمُ نَفْسٌ مَّا أُخْفِيَ لَهُم مِّن قُرَّةِ أَعْيُنٍ جَزَاء بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (17)
أَفَمَن كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا كَمَن كَانَ فَاسِقًا لَّا يَسْتَوُونَ (18)
أَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ فَلَهُمْ جَنَّاتُ الْمَأْوَى نُزُلًا بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (19)
وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فَسَقُوا فَمَأْوَاهُمُ النَّارُ كُلَّمَا أَرَادُوا أَن يَخْرُجُوا مِنْهَا أُعِيدُوا فِيهَا وَقِيلَ لَهُمْ ذُوقُوا عَذَابَ النَّارِ الَّذِي كُنتُم بِهِ تُكَذِّبُونَ (20)
وَلَنُذِيقَنَّهُمْ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَدْنَى دُونَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَكْبَرِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ (21)
وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّن ذُكِّرَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِ ثُمَّ أَعْرَضَ عَنْهَا إِنَّا مِنَ الْمُجْرِمِينَ مُنتَقِمُونَ (22)


All_Brains wrote:
Great Ahmed, so you believe your God created the vast majority of people just to be thrown in hell for eternity,


Yes, and those who are doomed, earned it fair and square

All_Brains wrote:
having pre-designed their actions anyway!!!


There is a difference between the followings:

1) Design an action
2) Influence an action
3) Allow an action
4) Disallow an action

Now for our actions, only 2,3 & 4 apply to our God

Quote:
13: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together.


All_Brains wrote:
The above verse is pure evil Ahmed, it might as well be written by the devil. Luckily I don't believe in him either!


dismissed

Quote:
-> See what Allah says: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance,, of course Allah can force everyone of us to believe but the whole thing of creating us will be a joke, as well His laws will be contradicted because when he created Adam and his partner He told them: but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together., see how Allah is saying that His word is the truth, i.e. there will be no change to His words and what He said MUST HAPPEN, now it is not like He will randomly those whom He will make to believe rather He will help those sincere ones who have realized the possible high stakes that must come to pass if Allah exists. Of course Allah wonít help the arrogant who only cared less about the warning, why should He?


All_Brains wrote:
And who pre-designed some people to be sincere and some people to be arrogant?


No one pre designed it, all the people are born babies who know nothing, the years that are planned for them to live and what they do in it, will be the only factor that will make them what they might be

All_Brains wrote:
If it's us, then God isn't Omniscient,


Wrong, because He has to give us limited freewill according to His test, otherwise the test is a joke

Also for Him being able to :

1) Influence an action
2) Allow an action
3) †Disallow an action

Must make Him Omniscient

All_Brains wrote:
and If it's God, then he is unfair to torture people who just did what he made them to do!!!


Do you mean because He allowed them to do it, then no, but if you insist that this is an act of unfairness then tough luck to all the people.

Quote:
-> Here is †an example of how nopt to be arrogant towards the signs of Allah: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant., HO CLEAR IS THAT MAN?, well you can see many of those arrogant freaks who not just ignore the message BUT MOCK IT AS WELL, I guess they started to mock it because of the seal set upon them due to their arrogance, now they will be indulged for the rest of their lives in mocking the message so when their day comes, they will earn hell fair and square



All_Brains wrote:
Sure Ahmed, people see signs on daily basis and everyone is trying to decide, is it from Allah?Jesus?Yahweh?Shiva?Brahma? Or just nature and the physical rules of the universe


See, that is the limited freewill given

No compulsion in religion, also remember well that this life is not a free ride if Allah exists

Quote:
Remember what I asked you a minute ago, Is Baal equal to someone who have believed?, that is exactly what the Quran is asking you too: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they., see how Allah is giving the answer at the same time, this is because IT IS THE ONLY ANSWER, a believer can never be equal to a disbeliever


All_Brains wrote:
Well, we have to be convinced first of the validity of the Quran before we can acknowledge such warnings.


Iím, for you and the likes of you, itís not my business really, however I'm happy to keep explaining His message in the Quran as long as you want to learn not to just argue that there is no God, for me I careless that you believe in a god or not, BELIEVE ME 100% when I tell you that

Quote:

-> Now here is something very interesting, it actually proves the mercy of Allah towards those whom He set seal upon them: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may †return., see Allah still trying to guide those arrogant freaks, but His guidance is going to be through the hard way for them, i.e. they will be hit with things in this life: in order that they may †return.


All_Brains wrote:
Is this another word for Allah removing the set seal???


I guess so but only if they pass the lesser tests in this life

Quote:
-> Here is a description of a criminal like Baal And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals., see why I called him criminal, it was not me, it was the Quran who called the likes of him as such, I only told him what the Quran is saying about him, now criminal means that a crime has been committed which means retribution must be enforced, that is the human law, pal


All_Brains wrote:
Of course! That's what you believe. Baal though may disagree and think we all just going to die and rot in the ground!


And the Quran talks a lot about those who keep repeating this argument, indeed Allah is way too smart to make it such way by making our dead bodies turn to dust so the kafiroon insist on their arrogance, see how the tough test is played

All_Brains wrote:
As we both progress in the Quran discussion, readers will be able to read and take sides.

Thank you for putting in the effort and civilly fighting your cause!


Salam
_________________
And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ahmed, I think it's enough on the point already.

1) You believe that the omniscient God created humans to serve and worship, and those who are destined to follow his path will go to heaven and those who are led astray and have their hearts sealed, based on their evil pre-determined actions will go to an eternal hell.

2) I think that the idea of an omniscient God contradicts with free will and hence the eternal punishment of the consequential actions.

I will post my next point of discussion soon.

Hope you recovered from your flu!

Regards
All_Brains
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Thanks Ahmed, I think it's enough on the point already.

1) You believe that the omniscient God created humans to serve and worship, and those who are destined to follow his path will go to heaven and those who are led astray and have their hearts sealed, based on their evil pre-determined actions will go to an eternal hell.

2) I think that the idea of an omniscient God contradicts with free will and hence the eternal punishment of the consequential actions.

I will post my next point of discussion soon.

Hope you recovered from your flu!

Regards
All_Brains


Thanks A_B

One thing that I would like to add to your summary of my belief, that they are destined to hell because THEY EARNED IT with their arrogance

I'm still recovering mate, but managed to do the VPN tunnel to cairo, and many other shit including remote control to all servers in cairo

let's move forard now

cheers
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُم مَّا فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعاً ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

Shakir 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

Pickthal 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

Al-Hilali 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istaw‚ (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.


Hello Ahmed

The above verse suggests that Allah had to physically alter his position (directed himself/turned he to/rose over towards) in order to create the seven heavens, which contradicts the meaning of "omnipresent"!

Please enlighten us.

Regards
All_Brains
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُم مَّا فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعاً ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

Shakir 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

Pickthal 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

Al-Hilali 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istaw‚ (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.


All_Brains wrote:
Hello Ahmed


Hello A_B


All_Brains wrote:
The above verse suggests that Allah had to physically alter his position (directed himself/turned he to/rose over towards) in order to create the seven heavens, which contradicts the meaning of "omnipresent"!

Please enlighten us.

Regards
All_Brains


The word Istawa does not in anyway means that a position has been changed, rather it means Istaqar letís say for simplicity ďto sit downĒ

The important note is this:

Similar to the word Daraba, if some words came after the word Istawa, then we might have a few possible meanings

For example

Istawa Ila = Directed His attention to

Istawa Ala = Sit down on

Under any of the above possible meanings, I canít see any change in any location, in fact it seems that everything is within the vicinity of Allah, the heaven and the earth and His throne all within His vicinity

Let e just tell you that from the above translation you brought in, I will go for shakir as the most accurate to the meaning of Istawa Ila, however to make shakir translation more accurate, it should be like this:

He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed His attention to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

In the verses of the throne of Allah , we donít read it Istawa Ila, rather Istawa Ala, i.e. He Istaqar Ala, for simplicity He sat down on

I just canít see any change in Allah location under any of the meanings discussed above

Cheers
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure Ahmed, so instead of the shift of position your money is on shifting or directing of attention, however you now ran into a bigger problem, as for Allah to shift his attention in order to focus on something other than what he was doing before, makes his position as omniscient and omnipotent very questionable!!!

I expect the one true God to be able to multi-task!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Sure Ahmed, so instead of the shift of position your money is on shifting or directing of attention, however you now ran into a bigger problem, as for Allah to shift his attention in order to focus on something other than what he was doing before, makes his position as omniscient and omnipotent very questionable!!!

I expect the one true God to be able to multi-task!


Hello A_B

Why you say to focus His attention on something other than what He was doing before?

come on, it's logical that If He finished what He was doing He may shift †His attention into another task according to a timeline in His plan

Your questions above is irrellevent to our discussion, which is not the nature of the God, however I eaplained to you what the Quran words might be and still you try to create any holes to suit your disbelief

Simply everything that Allah does is according to An Ajal Maaloom, i.e. a known appointed time

Therefore if Allah was doing a task let's say for argument sake on day one then on day two He moved on to another task, etc etc, this should in no way contradicts His omniscient nor His omnipotent neither HIs omnipresent

Salam


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