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BMZ
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:33 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
XXX, you do realize that you can permit something through exceptions. For example, the next verse 'permits' for inheriting women against there will.

Quote:
004.019
YUSUFALI: Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

Now we have people actually reading this verse and going: Masha-allah! Koran really does forbid inheriting women against their will!

But really, this verse just permitted you to inherit women against their will. Same thing wiht lying. Koran can start by "Forbiding Lying" and then state the exceptions. And then once the exceptions are taken into consideration, then the koran *does* permit lying.


I should now bestow the title of Taqaiyya tactician upon you after reading your comment. What English words gave you the impression that the verse permitted one to inherit women against their will? lol!

If you can't understand English, how am I supposed to expect you to understand the verse in Arabic?

lol!

BMZ

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Baal
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

XXX wrote:

Baal wrote:
XXX, you do realize that you can permit something through exceptions. For example, the next verse 'permits' for inheriting women against there will.

Quote:
004.019
YUSUFALI: Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

Now we have people actually reading this verse and going: Masha-allah! Koran really does forbid inheriting women against their will!

But really, this verse just permitted you to inherit women against their will. Same thing wiht lying. Koran can start by "Forbiding Lying" and then state the exceptions. And then once the exceptions are taken into consideration, then the koran *does* permit lying.


No. When lying is permitted has been stated, and it is well known  what the conditions for those are.

Yes. The conditions (exceptions) when lying is permitted are well known. And they cover too many aspects to be referred to as 'just' exceptions.

XXX wrote:

This whole concept of taqqiyah and everything else has been invented by you non-muslims.

Taqqiya and Kitman are Shiia concepts although they had been thrown around in the Sunni world and their meaning was clear. In the Sunno world that are referred to as the doctrine of "Wala-a & Bara-a".

You can expect the Westerners to call it Wala-a to you and Taqqiya to Shiia. But Westerners (and me) do not care about such sensibilities.

XXX wrote:

Everytime you think a muslim is lying, its Taqqiyah.
Everytime a muslim says something about Islam that doesn't fall in line with how you understand it- Its Taqqiyah.
When you don't like the answer, it is Taqqiyah.
What a muslim is wrong about something- he isn't ignorant- he is lying and it is Taqqiyah.
When a muslim is clearly lying. It isn't lying. It is religiously ordained lying by Islam called Taqqiyah.

Do not get too worked over this. I am not a Westerner. I know how and what it is.

As long as the lie is permitted under the 'Exceptions' in islamic scripture, then such a lie is 'permitted' within islam. It does not get much simpler then that.

XXX wrote:

You do not exactly need the Qu'ran to tell you, that you can lie to protect your life or you are being persecuted for your beliefs. It has been done throughout history.

Yes you do not need the koran to save your life. But it is there. And the way it is written, it makes it too open for anything else beside 'saving yourself from persecution'.

XXX wrote:

The Qu'ran merely reassures you that if you do it, your faith is not nullified by doing it.

Other then that, Lying is not allowed Period.

Who are you to 'make' the koran teach what you want it to teach? Just because 'you' think that lying should not be allowed, it does not mean the koran agrees with you. The Koran made the conditions (Exceptions) for lying too vague. Do not blame me, blame the writer of the koran who does not agree with you.


XXX wrote:

Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq said: “Beware of lying, for it has nothing to do with faith.”  

Then why does the koran alows it.

XXX wrote:

4. It was narrated that Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqaas said: “The believer may acquire all sorts of characteristics except treachery and lying.”  

As long as he sticks to the exceptions in the koran you mentioned earlier.

[quote="XXX"]
5.  It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “True faith is not achieved until one gives up lying in jest.”  

(Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah, 5/235, 236)
XXX wrote:
est except people with mental retardation. And retarded people are not treated harshly anyways. They all lied and all say Muhammad lie, that is why he had to add 'in jest' at the end.

[quote="XXX"]
It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said:

“The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Truthfulness is righteousness, and righteousness leads to  Paradise. A person will continue to tell the truth until he is written with Allaah as one who tells the truth. Lying is evildoing, and evildoing leads to Hell. A person will keep on telling lies until he is written as a liar.’”  
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5743; Muslim, 2607)  

Spare me the hadith XXX. As long as he sticks to the exception then he can lie. And inherit a woman against her will. I also know about the Aisha hadith where she said the Three conditions under which Muhammad lied and said it is okay to lie.

XXX wrote:

Taqqiyah is a label you use to discredit  muslims and make sure they are distrusted by everyone else.

Maybe if you people actually understood Islam, you would know what Islam teaches about lying. Clearly you don't and never will, because you think you know it all already and don't need some muslims who are clearly trying to deceive you into believing they don't practice it. But you know better right?

Yes, I understand islam and I understand what it teaches about lying.

I understand when 500 muslim scholars Three month ago made a demonstration for peace and read a part of verse 5:32 to make a claim that there book is about "Any who kills a life it is as if he killed all humanity". I know how the rest of 5:32 reads and I know about 5:33.

But I guess islam does not teach us to lie.
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Baal
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
 The Taliban are foreign invaders as far as Afghanis are concerned. With Ten Schools burned in the last month not a single one of them being a Madrassa.

And in Iraq it is muslims killing muslims and if the States leave now there will be massive genocides as per the admission of member of al-qaeda.

I do not know what Paul did 2000yrs ago, I know what Dennis Hooper and imams preaching in the West are doing. They are lying through their teeth. And it is supported in their scripture. Islam permits it.


[i]Now what you wrote is a good example of Taqaiyya from you, Baal.

Talebans, foreign invaders?  Laughing  Talebans ARE Afghans.

Taleban means Student in Arabic. It is a movement funded and soldiered by Arabs. Go to an Afghani forum and discuss with them the influence of Arabs on the Taliban and see yourself laughed out their door.

BMZ wrote:

There were no Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq before the wrongful invasion by the US and the UK. The credit goes to both of them for causing all this trumoil.

Yes they were killing each other. Iraq was in a war with Iran for 10 years. And Saddam was busy killing his own population and gassing them for another 15 years.

BMZ wrote:

If they leave Iraq, the killings would go on for a while and Iraqis will fix up the mess themeselves.
It is another Taqaiyya from you and the United States. People would prefer their own bad government to the bad occupation of another government based on Taqaiyya.

Good, so if the US was to leave tonight. You will be willing to volunteer to goto Iraq with a shovel to start digging graves for iraquis.

BMZ wrote:

It is a fallacy to say that there would be civil war and massive killings if the dirty US military left Iraq. That is all BS. Those people who have kept the American miltary busy and engaged for over five years can keep on doing so. This is what the best and the brightest dumb minds of the US cannot understand.

It will not be just a civil war. Iran will jump in for a piece. Turkey will jump in for a piece (They already tried twice). As well as the Iraquis will go at each other. It will be worse then a civil war.


Cheers,
Baal
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
XXX, you do realize that you can permit something through exceptions. For example, the next verse 'permits' for inheriting women against there will.

Quote:
004.019
YUSUFALI: Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

Now we have people actually reading this verse and going: Masha-allah! Koran really does forbid inheriting women against their will!

But really, this verse just permitted you to inherit women against their will. Same thing wiht lying. Koran can start by "Forbiding Lying" and then state the exceptions. And then once the exceptions are taken into consideration, then the koran *does* permit lying.


I should now bestow the title of Taqaiyya tactician upon you after reading your comment. What English words gave you the impression that the verse permitted one to inherit women against their will? lol!

If you can't understand English, how am I supposed to expect you to understand the verse in Arabic?

lol!

BMZ

English word? what English word indeed? The verse states what exception is needed in order to Inherit a Woman against her Will.

So in Canada today, you can NOT inherit a woman against her will. But if you apply Sharia in Canada, then verse 4:19 will give us the condition under which a woman *can* be inherited against her will.

You were reading the koran with puppy-eyed good intentions, because you are 'probably' a good human. But if you read the koran like a Sharia lawyer, it is a vile and insidious verse.

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