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God's Literal Words?
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ibnishaq
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

hi brainout!! on one of your reasons of why bible should be word of god you stated
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2.  It should demonstrate Infinite Perfect Genius of writing style, even if using humans.  Else you can't know that humans really aren't the origin of it.

Does the bible have a great writing style? also do you believe in gematria?
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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Qur’an contains clear passages that point to utterances by Muhammad himself, not God — most of those oaths (e.g. “By the enshrouding night!”).  The most revealing of these runs thusly: “By God!” Numerous Qur’anic commentators, in a flummox about how to explain such blatant pagan sentiments, ascribe these passages to Allah himself with Muhammad dutifully repeating every single thing he heard and thereby acting more like a secretary reading back her master’s dictations.

Other sections include treaties and documents of war (such as the start of Surah #9, known as ‘at–Tawba’, or ‘Repentance’) interpolated into revelations. This one makes for the most interesting because it appears as a separate sura but does not come prefaced with the Basmala (“bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim”). Again, commentators and exegetes, forced to supply a reason for such an obvious addition into the Revelatory texts, claim it exists as a part of Surah 8 and not a separate one.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:50 am    Post subject: Re: God's Literal Words? Reply with quote

kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


No, so why are you so obsessed with it?


What do you mean?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:21 am    Post subject: Re: God's Literal Words? Reply with quote

cosmicdancer wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


No, so why are you so obsessed with it?


What do you mean?


I am just curious, CD.  I get the feeling, and it is a feeling only, that you are on some kind of quest -- looking for something.  If I am wrong, please correct me.

Are you looking for additional justification for your apostasy?  I don't think you need any, but I just sense that you are still looking for justification.

I think the Quran is obviously, on its face, a fabrication of Mohammed, and/or some of his followers.  It cannot possibly satisfy all of the claims for its perfection, etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: God's Literal Words? Reply with quote

kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


No, so why are you so obsessed with it?


What do you mean?


I am just curious, CD.  I get the feeling, and it is a feeling only, that you are on some kind of quest -- looking for something.  If I am wrong, please correct me.

Are you looking for additional justification for your apostasy?  I don't think you need any, but I just sense that you are still looking for justification.

I think the Quran is obviously, on its face, a fabrication of Mohammed, and/or some of his followers.  It cannot possibly satisfy all of the claims for its perfection, etc.


I would have thought it obvious that Islam leaves ex-Muslims with a lot of issues that take time to resolve.

That is precisely why we have ex-Muslim forums - to offer ex-Muslims (and Muslims) help, understanding, support and a place to work-through their thoughts and feelings.

Frankly I find it odd that you don't understand that - particularly as you spend so much time on ex-Muslim forums.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: God's Literal Words? Reply with quote

cosmicdancer wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


No, so why are you so obsessed with it?


What do you mean?


I am just curious, CD.  I get the feeling, and it is a feeling only, that you are on some kind of quest -- looking for something.  If I am wrong, please correct me.

Are you looking for additional justification for your apostasy?  I don't think you need any, but I just sense that you are still looking for justification.

I think the Quran is obviously, on its face, a fabrication of Mohammed, and/or some of his followers.  It cannot possibly satisfy all of the claims for its perfection, etc.


I would have thought it obvious that Islam leaves ex-Muslims with a lot of issues that take time to resolve.

That is precisely why we have ex-Muslim forums - to offer ex-Muslims (and Muslims) help, understanding, support and a place to work-through their thoughts and feelings.

Frankly I find it odd that you don't understand that - particularly as you spend so much time on ex-Muslim forums.


Quit whining.  I understand it more than you know.  To be blunt, the problem of all ex-muslims is a lack of self-esteem which is inbred into you by the cult mentality and group identity that Islam forces onto you.  I started to explain that in another forum, which I directed you too, but which you have basically ignored.  YOU NEED YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY INDEPENDENT OF THE FUCKING GROUP.

Until you overcome the four fears that I articulated, you are lost.  Get a grip, man.  Step up to the plate and face those fears, and when you realize how absurd they are, you will be free.

Sorry, but it is time for tough love.  If you really want to get over this Isam crap, you need to stop whining and learn to think for yourself.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:58 pm    Post subject: Re: God's Literal Words? Reply with quote

kafir forever wrote:

Quit whining.  I understand it more than you know.  To be blunt, the problem of all ex-muslims is a lack of self-esteem which is inbred into you by the cult mentality and group identity that Islam forces onto you.  I started to explain that in another forum, which I directed you too, but which you have basically ignored.  YOU NEED YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY INDEPENDENT OF THE FUCKING GROUP.

Until you overcome the four fears that I articulated, you are lost.  Get a grip, man.  Step up to the plate and face those fears, and when you realize how absurd they are, you will be free.

Sorry, but it is time for tough love.  If you really want to get over this Isam crap, you need to stop whining and learn to think for yourself.


I don't know wether you two has some kind of history, but it seems to me that there might be a kind of misunderstanding due to your little 'discussion' here. But anyways your, KF, thoughts about fears I think is correct, but I think that your 'actions' towards CD are to harsh and might be that you have misunderstood him. I don't know. But I don't think there's anything "whining" about realising that leaving a community/group/faith might have some personal implication, and that a forum to discuss such an issue is very much useful for some.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: God's Literal Words? Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
kafir forever wrote:

Quit whining.  I understand it more than you know.  To be blunt, the problem of all ex-muslims is a lack of self-esteem which is inbred into you by the cult mentality and group identity that Islam forces onto you.  I started to explain that in another forum, which I directed you too, but which you have basically ignored.  YOU NEED YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY INDEPENDENT OF THE FUCKING GROUP.

Until you overcome the four fears that I articulated, you are lost.  Get a grip, man.  Step up to the plate and face those fears, and when you realize how absurd they are, you will be free.

Sorry, but it is time for tough love.  If you really want to get over this Isam crap, you need to stop whining and learn to think for yourself.


I don't know wether you two has some kind of history, but it seems to me that there might be a kind of misunderstanding due to your little 'discussion' here. But anyways your, KF, thoughts about fears I think is correct, but I think that your 'actions' towards CD are to harsh and might be that you have misunderstood him. I don't know. But I don't think there's anything "whining" about realising that leaving a community/group/faith might have some personal implication, and that a forum to discuss such an issue is very much useful for some.

Cheers


You are right, Tvebak, and I apologize to CD for my outburst.  I really do like CD.  He is a sane kind of guy.  My rant is not really directed at him, but is a result of my frustration with the whole ex-muslim thing.  Islam is evil, and one thing the adherents do is completely destroy the self-esteem of its followers.  That is an essential ingredient of that cult, and in my mind, is anti-human.

My frustration is, that is is so obvious that is what is happening, and that it was intentionally designed by a madman to promote his brand of thuggery.  And the solution is also obvious and simple.

1.  Recognize that the Islamic definition of Hell is a physical impossibility and violates basic common sense.  It CANNOT exist, and to fear it is absurd.  Once a person realizes how absurd the notion is, a couple of things happen.  The first is that the person begins to have confidence in his own ability to think rationally, a key ingrediant in building self-esteem which conquers fear #4, and the other is that if the concept of Islamic Hell is absurd, then so is the entire Quran.  The conjuring of a madman.  I do not see why ANYONE would have any trouble whatsoever walking away from that shit.

2. Continue to work on self-esteem building exercises.  If necessary, find some books on the subject, and learn to think for yourself, and have confidence in your ability to think and reason.  This takes practice, but as a person does it, the person builds confidence and that feeds on itself.  Soon, the person has his or her own identity and can defend it with certainty.  When that happens, it is easy to stand up to anyone who challenges your apostasy and tell them exactly why Islam is shit, and you can do it with pride.  Not as opinion, but as fact based on Islam's own literature, history and just plain old common sense.

As for the death sentence and abandoment of family, fears #2 and #3, they have to be dealt with specifically, but CD lives in the UK.  Just walk away from any Islamic enclave, move somewhere else, change your name if you have to, just get the hell out.

As for family, I would disown any family member of mine who held my apostasy against me.  I would tell them that they obviously loved their fucking religion more than they loved me, so they are no longer of any value to me.  That is harsh, and it is just me.  Some people cannot do that, so they will need to find another solution.

Anyway, if someone has to ask about the Quran, or any other religious work, being the literal word of God, they are not thinking.

As far as I am concerned, if you can't get over fear #1, you will never make it, and it is the easiest one to overcome.  So stop dwelling on it, and get over it.

Again, I apologize to CD for my rant, and if it is based on a misinterpretation, then I will be corrected.  However, I stand by what I have said about what needs to be done to escape this madness, and I get frustrated when people can't see the simplicity of it.

I guess this probably sounds like another rant, so I may have to apologize again, but it just seems so obvious.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: God's Literal Words? Reply with quote

kafir forever wrote:
Quit whining


Whining?

Perhaps you could point out where I have been whining?

I thought my posts here on this thread and elsewhere have made some good points and been supportive of other ex-Muslims (such as ibn Ishaq)

But if you consider them to be whining then I shall spare you.

If my posts are not wanted or appreciated then I shall leave (this forum and all other forums) and you can remain and offer your expert opinions on all the ex-Muslim forums you like.

May I say goodbye and best wishes - particularly to my good friend All Brains, Tvebak, He and others.

Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't take it too hard, dear cd !

I guess KF was just a bit revved-up, in the "heat of the moment", maybe taking other anger out on you now... it happans, now and then...

and he apologized !

Just leave it at that, maybe...

Your input is always valuable and appreciated here, so please don't go running away !


to get a lil smile on yo face, did you see the pic of this canterbury-guy ? Very Happy

http://freefaith.myfreeforum.org/sutra3381.php&highlight=#3381

.


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