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Tas-hih Al Bukhari (Authenticating Bukhari)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:06 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
In all fairness XXX some hadiths from the sahih are completely insane, like the stoning of she monkey, Muhammad's lice and the fact the devil lives in our nostrils!!!


I have decided to charge the devil some rent for hanging out in my nostrils. If the little snot doesn't pay up, I'll give him the finger.

Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


the hadith is nothing but conjectures exactly as the Quran being a conjecture,




I told you...
You are an apostate in the making !

And... one step closer now... good to see you nearing yourself to the truth !

You will become one of the staunchest attackers on quran and ahadith, mohammad and "allah" - "islam" - then ! Shocked


Quote:

however the Quran tells us that it is ok to follow the LEAST of conjectures, following most conjectures is something the Quran warned against, and in such case i consider following the Quran as from the least conjectures that are ok to follow



Thats something like a limp dick !

Kind of like in politics - you don't really agree with the guy you voted for, but he was the best you could get, choosing the least harmful person, so to speak...

If its all conjectures, where does it start and where does it end ?

I hope you make it OUT, while still being kinda young, so you can at least at one point start to enjoy your life, free of this violent hateful, revengeful, threatening ideology, which have been brainwashed into...

I don't blame you for this, nor your parents, or grandparents, they did not know any better, they could hardly have known better, no information available !

Its VERY different TODAY !
Where you find thousands of pages, and piles of information on everything !

I'm not saying that all this information MUST lead to atheism, or agnosticism - it will always depend on your very personal "need" for a religion, for a "god", for "guidance", and maybe an "air-grip" to hold on to...

But chances are better than ever, that people wake up, at least a bit more of them, of all walks of life, all races, colors, orogins, etc... all religions !

Islam will be extremely vulnerable to this process, since it carries such a binary logical rule...
no "grey-zone" but black or white - 1 or 0 - yes or no - life or death - paradise or hell !!

Life itself is not "binary", we [human beings generally] hardly ever get into the extreme positions, we are being dominated by the "grey-zone" in between the two extremes, thats where life takes place !

In the long run, this hardheaded "yes or no" stance is incompatible with our lives !
People will run away, as soon as they see they have the liberty to do so !
And it will become an avalanche !

Did you know that 47% of Londoners define themselves as atheists or agnostics, add the number of nominal christians, and muslims, and hindus, whatever...
How many percent would still define themselves as "believers" in the clean sense, kinda "orthodox", by the book, whatever book... maybe 20 % or so... ?

In every religion its like with this stereotype label "buffet", you pick the parts you want to eat, and leave the rest... my mother does so, in christianism, and many many socalled muslims go exatcly down this very road, you too !

It was due to the "blind ages" - †the times without any access to information on a broad basis - people were more drawn to the myths and fables, and phantasies, too many things unexplainable to them, therefor, must be "god"...

Its different now !

.


piss off you punk
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[The Quran ; 17:81]
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam All


Letís have a look at a totally different hadith to the ones in which the prophet warned his sahaba not to write anything he says but the Quran and if they did, they should have deleted it, but if they donít then †they were not really obeying the prophet

In the following hadith which again from Musannad Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, we read the same wrong actions by the sahaba and we see the prophet stressing for them that what they did is wrong and they must uphold only the Book of Allah (The Quran)

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/hier.asp?Doc=6&n=10611

Ishaq Ibn Isa told me that Abdul Rahman Ibn Zaid knew from his father who knew it from Ataa Ibn Yassar that Abu Hurairah said:

We were sitting down writing what we hear from the prophet salla Allah alaihi wa sallam, he came to us and said: What is that which you are writing. We said: it is what we hear from you, then he said: Another book with the Book of Allah?, we said: it is what we hear, he said: Write down the book of Allah, uphold the Book of Allah, what! Another book but the book of Allah?. Uphold the Book of Allah, Abu Hurairah said: So we collected what we wrote ALL TOGETHER and burnt it with fire, then we said: O Rasool Allah, can we talk about you?, he said: Yes you can talk about me and there should be no blame on you, and whoever lies about me deliberately, then his seat in hell will be secured. Then we said: Can we talk about the children of Israel?, He said: Yes you can talk about the children of Israel and there should be no blame on you, and whatever you say about them but there is more to wonder about them


The above hadith is clear that THERE SHOULD BE NO BOOK NEXT TO ALLAH BOOK, see how the prophet said it: Write down the book of Allah, uphold the Book of Allah. What! Another book but the book of Allah?. Uphold the Book of Allah

See how the sahaba MUST OBEY the prophet: So we collected what we wrote ALL TOGETHER and burnt it with fire

Now, see how he advised them that talking about him should only be VERBAL: Yes you can talk about me and there should be no blame on you, and whoever lies about me deliberately, then his seat in hell will be secured

200 years later, the huge warning by the prophet was totally ignored and they started creating many other hadith books next to Allah Book

Isnít obvious that those freaks who uphold such books next to Allah Book are clear cut Mushrikoon who did not obey the prophet and only obeyed Satan?

I leave it to the reader to judge, I guess everyone was given a brain

Salam
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


the hadith is nothing but conjectures exactly as the Quran being a conjecture,




I told you...
You are an apostate in the making !

And... one step closer now... good to see you nearing yourself to the truth !

You will become one of the staunchest attackers on quran and ahadith, mohammad and "allah" - "islam" - then !
Shocked


Quote:

however the Quran tells us that it is ok to follow the LEAST of conjectures, following most conjectures is something the Quran warned against, and in such case i consider following the Quran as from the least conjectures that are ok to follow



Thats something like a limp dick !

Kind of like in politics - you don't really agree with the guy you voted for, but he was the best you could get, choosing the least harmful person, so to speak...

If its all conjectures, where does it start and where does it end ?

I hope you make it OUT, while still being kinda young, so you can at least at one point start to enjoy your life, free of this violent hateful, revengeful, threatening ideology, which have been brainwashed into...

I don't blame you for this, nor your parents, or grandparents, they did not know any better, they could hardly have known better, no information available !

Its VERY different TODAY !
Where you find thousands of pages, and piles of information on everything !

I'm not saying that all this information MUST lead to atheism, or agnosticism - it will always depend on your very personal "need" for a religion, for a "god", for "guidance", and maybe an "air-grip" to hold on to...

But chances are better than ever, that people wake up, at least a bit more of them, of all walks of life, all races, colors, orogins, etc... all religions !

Islam will be extremely vulnerable to this process, since it carries such a binary logical rule...
no "grey-zone" but black or white - 1 or 0 - yes or no - life or death - paradise or hell !!

Life itself is not "binary", we [human beings generally] hardly ever get into the extreme positions, we are being dominated by the "grey-zone" in between the two extremes, thats where life takes place !

In the long run, this hardheaded "yes or no" stance is incompatible with our lives !
People will run away, as soon as they see they have the liberty to do so !
And it will become an avalanche !

Did you know that 47% of Londoners define themselves as atheists or agnostics, add the number of nominal christians, and muslims, and hindus, whatever...
How many percent would still define themselves as "believers" in the clean sense, kinda "orthodox", by the book, whatever book... maybe 20 % or so... ?

In every religion its like with this stereotype label "buffet", you pick the parts you want to eat, and leave the rest... my mother does so, in christianism, and many many socalled muslims go exatcly down this very road, you too !

It was due to the "blind ages" - †the times without any access to information on a broad basis - people were more drawn to the myths and fables, and phantasies, too many things unexplainable to them, therefor, must be "god"...

Its different now !


.


piss off you punk



Whow, what a nice reply... rofl !

You couldn't be more descriptive, other than trying to say "errrrr... hummm, what can I say......."

I think your "god" will "piss off" !Twisted Evil

What you think ?


Anyway...
Thanks for the "interview" !

.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Ahmed

It's a logical fallacy to use the thing you're disproving as a proof!

You used Hadith to discredit Hadith!!!

If you really believe that nothing should have written apart from the Quran, then those hadiths should have never been written.

What is your response to the above.

Actually, I can think of few possibilities when something can be used to disprove itself.

If I make a positive claim that the "Book of Saturn" (The car manual for Saturn models) is from god.

And then me, who do not believe in the (book of Saturn) show you that the book of Saturn tells you: "I am not from God".

the problem with the Hadith is, koran tells us to obey muhammad much more then it tell us to obey allah. Also 94% of the reasons you will enter hell is for disobeying muhammad and allah. Only 6% is for moral failings. Okay fine, so now what are we supposed to obey? The hadith and sunna of course.

As such, the hadith that Ahmed brought forward about deleting hadith, is against the koran and should be dismissed.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


the hadith is nothing but conjectures exactly as the Quran being a conjecture,




I told you...
You are an apostate in the making !

And... one step closer now... good to see you nearing yourself to the truth !

Ahmed already believe that the koran is not the perfect one-to-one word of god and that it suffered some modifications. Although he still believes the meaning of the words had not been modified.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:

I guess I'm about to read your normal crap mister baal, let's see

Baal wrote:
Ahmed and for the hadith you brought. For a guy that committed a lot of bad things and he knows he committed a lot of bad things, it is normal for him to ask people to not write about him. But tough luck for him Ahmed.


well, that is if you can prove without an atom weight of doubt that he said so,

According to the islamic story, hadith and sunna are part of that story and that is without an atom weight of doubt.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

see, even while using such hadith as one of my strongest argument against the mushrikoon i have to still have doubt that the prophet may not said as such,

As I believe is within your right within the realm of valid logic.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

the hadith is nothing but conjectures exactly as the Quran being a conjecture, however the Quran tells us that it is ok to follow the LEAST of conjectures, following most conjectures is something the Quran warned against, and in such case i consider following the Quran as from the least conjectures that are ok to follow

From a functional point of view:
The koran is so busy telling us to believe allah and follow muhammad that it forgets to tell us what orders to obey. The moral and ethical stories in the Koran and the quality of the philosophy is so few and far that a muslim HAS to look for his orders and commands in a source outside the Koran.

So yes, I can just follow the conjectures of the koran, but it is not even close to being enough for me to have my religion.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

All_Brains wrote:
He sold himself as the uswa hasana,


well, if he really did as such in the Quran then he also sold Ibrahim and all the true believers in Ibrahim as Iswah Hasnah for all other believers, one of his (Ibrahim) main descriptions as highlighted many times in the Quran that he was not one of the Mushrikoon.

I agree with you that they are all Uswa Hasana. I did not think they are but after reading the text you showed me, I agree that they are all Uswa Hasana. Now, how can we follow the examples of Ibrahim and Joshua and Jesus (issa) and Muhammad?

AhmedBahgat wrote:

All_Brains wrote:
as the insan kamil,


where is that from the Quran?, in fact the Quran tells us that he faulted at least twice, and that does not mean Kamil to me, there is only one entity that is Kamilah, it is Allah alone

Kamil enough considering how often we are told to obey him.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

in his book the koran he told people to obey him a lot more often then people were told to obey Allah.


why dont you prove it first?

c'mmon, we are not Brown!

AhmedBahgat wrote:

All_Brains wrote:
Such a person will have his life story written down and recorded and followed by those who choose to follow him.


unfortanatlly for you, Mohammed was a messneger and the Quran tells us that all messengrs will be attacked and mocked, therefore what you say above and while being a kafir is bloody normal, I'm not surprised, however I have to dismiss your crap still

Nothing new. If someone comes up to me and tell me he is a prophet and shows me a wart in the middle of his back and tell me this is the 'seal or prophethood', I will shoo him off and physically attack him if he comes near my dog or children.

And do not claim Muhammad brought me a koran as proof because there was no koran until long after he died. Specially the koran in our hands today.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Ahmed

It's a logical fallacy to use the thing you're disproving as a proof!

You used Hadith to discredit Hadith!!!

If you really believe that nothing should have written apart from the Quran, then those hadiths should have never been written.

What is your response to the above.

Actually, I can think of few possibilities when something can be used to disprove itself.

If I make a positive claim that the "Book of Saturn" (The car manual for Saturn models) is from god.

And then me, who do not believe in the (book of Saturn) show you that the book of Saturn tells you: "I am not from God".

the problem with the Hadith is, koran tells us to obey muhammad much more then it tell us to obey allah. Also 94% of the reasons you will enter hell is for disobeying muhammad and allah. Only 6% is for moral failings. Okay fine, so now what are we supposed to obey? The hadith and sunna of course.

As such, the hadith that Ahmed brought forward about deleting hadith, is against the koran and should be dismissed.


Hello Baal

May be I have not explained myself properly.

Your example above when applied to the hadith will give you the following:

Person A believes hadith are the true wisdom of the prophet as inspired by God.
Person B proves hadith to be fake, did not come from Muhammad or inspired by God, through the demonstration of hadith to be absurd, illogical, racist and evil.

My analogy to Ahmed goes as follows:

Ahmed believes that hadith were not supposed to be written down, hence all hadith we have at hand are fake.
Ahmed proves his point through a hadith, that was not supposed to be written down in the first place.

So, my logical fallacy reference was not referring to the hadith itself, but the action of writing it down.

I hope this clarifies my point.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


the hadith is nothing but conjectures exactly as the Quran being a conjecture,




I told you...
You are an apostate in the making !

And... one step closer now... good to see you nearing yourself to the truth !

Ahmed already believe that the koran is not the perfect one-to-one word of god and that it suffered some modifications. Although he still believes the meaning of the words had not been modified.


stop lying you freak
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


the hadith is nothing but conjectures exactly as the Quran being a conjecture,




I told you...
You are an apostate in the making !

And... one step closer now... good to see you nearing yourself to the truth !

Ahmed already believe that the koran is not the perfect one-to-one word of god and that it suffered some modifications. Although he still believes the meaning of the words had not been modified.


stop lying you freak



But thats what you said...

Look at your own words ! Twisted Evil

Maybe the shaitaan made you say this, huh... ?
.


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