FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  Who is OnlineWho is Online   Join! (free) Join! (free)  
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
  • Welcome
  • Guest

  • Main Menu
  • Sticky Articles
  • Open Support Tickets
Tas-hih Al Bukhari (Authenticating Bukhari)
Page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 12, 13, 14  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FREE FAITH, EXPRESSION AND THOUGHT Forum Index -> Islam
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
AhmedBahgat
Golden Member
Golden Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 671


Location: Australia
Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:51 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


the hadith is nothing but conjectures exactly as the Quran being a conjecture,




I told you...
You are an apostate in the making !

And... one step closer now... good to see you nearing yourself to the truth !

Ahmed already believe that the koran is not the perfect one-to-one word of god and that it suffered some modifications. Although he still believes the meaning of the words had not been modified.


stop lying you freak



But thats what you said...

Look at your own words ! Twisted Evil

Maybe the shaitaan made you say this, huh... ?
.


why don't you show it to all you  conman?
_________________
And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
XXX
New Member
New Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 22



Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is only one thing I have to say to you

if you consider that calling you son of a mushrik is an insult, then  fine, I'm sorry

but you have to know that I don't consider it an insult, in fact I consider some of my closest family members to be the same

I actually wanted to say son of a biitch, but thought that must be an insult, so i changed it to son of a mushrik because again, I consider it not an insult, but if you do then sorry again

now, I won't dialgue with you regarding the man made hadith and your master bukhari, however A_B is very welcome to raise any point regarding such crap and human invention called hadith sciencne he can resort to the shirk url link you posted

As i said, you cann me what ever you like, just don't bring relatives in this. When you say "Son of a " that is bringing family into it.
Fair enough, i accept apology.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ibnishaq
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 155


Location: USA
Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All


Letís have a look at a totally different hadith to the ones in which the prophet warned his sahaba not to write anything he says but the Quran and if they did, they should have deleted it, but if they donít then  they were not really obeying the prophet

In the following hadith which again from Musannad Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, we read the same wrong actions by the sahaba and we see the prophet stressing for them that what they did is wrong and they must uphold only the Book of Allah (The Quran)

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/hier.asp?Doc=6&n=10611

Ishaq Ibn Isa told me that Abdul Rahman Ibn Zaid knew from his father who knew it from Ataa Ibn Yassar that Abu Hurairah said:

We were sitting down writing what we hear from the prophet salla Allah alaihi wa sallam, he came to us and said: What is that which you are writing. We said: it is what we hear from you, then he said: Another book with the Book of Allah?, we said: it is what we hear, he said: Write down the book of Allah, uphold the Book of Allah, what! Another book but the book of Allah?. Uphold the Book of Allah, Abu Hurairah said: So we collected what we wrote ALL TOGETHER and burnt it with fire, then we said: O Rasool Allah, can we talk about you?, he said: Yes you can talk about me and there should be no blame on you, and whoever lies about me deliberately, then his seat in hell will be secured. Then we said: Can we talk about the children of Israel?, He said: Yes you can talk about the children of Israel and there should be no blame on you, and whatever you say about them but there is more to wonder about them


The above hadith is clear that THERE SHOULD BE NO BOOK NEXT TO ALLAH BOOK, see how the prophet said it: Write down the book of Allah, uphold the Book of Allah. What! Another book but the book of Allah?. Uphold the Book of Allah

See how the sahaba MUST OBEY the prophet: So we collected what we wrote ALL TOGETHER and burnt it with fire

Now, see how he advised them that talking about him should only be VERBAL: Yes you can talk about me and there should be no blame on you, and whoever lies about me deliberately, then his seat in hell will be secured

200 years later, the huge warning by the prophet was totally ignored and they started creating many other hadith books next to Allah Book

Isnít obvious that those freaks who uphold such books next to Allah Book are clear cut Mushrikoon who did not obey the prophet and only obeyed Satan?

I leave it to the reader to judge, I guess everyone was given a brain

Salam

you need to look at the hadith in its context. this is when you refer to the tafsir and other islamic sources.

it has been agreed by the ulema that this hadith is da'eef. for those that say it is hassan, they say that it was speaking about a certain time ad was abrogated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
AhmedBahgat
Golden Member
Golden Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 671


Location: Australia
Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All


Letís have a look at a totally different hadith to the ones in which the prophet warned his sahaba not to write anything he says but the Quran and if they did, they should have deleted it, but if they donít then †they were not really obeying the prophet

In the following hadith which again from Musannad Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, we read the same wrong actions by the sahaba and we see the prophet stressing for them that what they did is wrong and they must uphold only the Book of Allah (The Quran)

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/hier.asp?Doc=6&n=10611

Ishaq Ibn Isa told me that Abdul Rahman Ibn Zaid knew from his father who knew it from Ataa Ibn Yassar that Abu Hurairah said:

We were sitting down writing what we hear from the prophet salla Allah alaihi wa sallam, he came to us and said: What is that which you are writing. We said: it is what we hear from you, then he said: Another book with the Book of Allah?, we said: it is what we hear, he said: Write down the book of Allah, uphold the Book of Allah, what! Another book but the book of Allah?. Uphold the Book of Allah, Abu Hurairah said: So we collected what we wrote ALL TOGETHER and burnt it with fire, then we said: O Rasool Allah, can we talk about you?, he said: Yes you can talk about me and there should be no blame on you, and whoever lies about me deliberately, then his seat in hell will be secured. Then we said: Can we talk about the children of Israel?, He said: Yes you can talk about the children of Israel and there should be no blame on you, and whatever you say about them but there is more to wonder about them


The above hadith is clear that THERE SHOULD BE NO BOOK NEXT TO ALLAH BOOK, see how the prophet said it: Write down the book of Allah, uphold the Book of Allah. What! Another book but the book of Allah?. Uphold the Book of Allah

See how the sahaba MUST OBEY the prophet: So we collected what we wrote ALL TOGETHER and burnt it with fire

Now, see how he advised them that talking about him should only be VERBAL: Yes you can talk about me and there should be no blame on you, and whoever lies about me deliberately, then his seat in hell will be secured

200 years later, the huge warning by the prophet was totally ignored and they started creating many other hadith books next to Allah Book

Isnít obvious that those freaks who uphold such books next to Allah Book are clear cut Mushrikoon who did not obey the prophet and only obeyed Satan?

I leave it to the reader to judge, I guess everyone was given a brain

Salam

you need to look at the hadith in its context. this is when you refer to the tafsir and other islamic sources.

it has been agreed by the ulema that this hadith is da'eef. for those that say it is hassan, they say that it was speaking about a certain time ad was abrogated.



haha, funny indeed

your crap above is dismissed
_________________
And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ibnishaq
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 155


Location: USA
Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All


Letís have a look at a totally different hadith to the ones in which the prophet warned his sahaba not to write anything he says but the Quran and if they did, they should have deleted it, but if they donít then  they were not really obeying the prophet

In the following hadith which again from Musannad Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, we read the same wrong actions by the sahaba and we see the prophet stressing for them that what they did is wrong and they must uphold only the Book of Allah (The Quran)

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/hier.asp?Doc=6&n=10611

Ishaq Ibn Isa told me that Abdul Rahman Ibn Zaid knew from his father who knew it from Ataa Ibn Yassar that Abu Hurairah said:

We were sitting down writing what we hear from the prophet salla Allah alaihi wa sallam, he came to us and said: What is that which you are writing. We said: it is what we hear from you, then he said: Another book with the Book of Allah?, we said: it is what we hear, he said: Write down the book of Allah, uphold the Book of Allah, what! Another book but the book of Allah?. Uphold the Book of Allah, Abu Hurairah said: So we collected what we wrote ALL TOGETHER and burnt it with fire, then we said: O Rasool Allah, can we talk about you?, he said: Yes you can talk about me and there should be no blame on you, and whoever lies about me deliberately, then his seat in hell will be secured. Then we said: Can we talk about the children of Israel?, He said: Yes you can talk about the children of Israel and there should be no blame on you, and whatever you say about them but there is more to wonder about them


The above hadith is clear that THERE SHOULD BE NO BOOK NEXT TO ALLAH BOOK, see how the prophet said it: Write down the book of Allah, uphold the Book of Allah. What! Another book but the book of Allah?. Uphold the Book of Allah

See how the sahaba MUST OBEY the prophet: So we collected what we wrote ALL TOGETHER and burnt it with fire

Now, see how he advised them that talking about him should only be VERBAL: Yes you can talk about me and there should be no blame on you, and whoever lies about me deliberately, then his seat in hell will be secured

200 years later, the huge warning by the prophet was totally ignored and they started creating many other hadith books next to Allah Book

Isnít obvious that those freaks who uphold such books next to Allah Book are clear cut Mushrikoon who did not obey the prophet and only obeyed Satan?

I leave it to the reader to judge, I guess everyone was given a brain

Salam

you need to look at the hadith in its context. this is when you refer to the tafsir and other islamic sources.

it has been agreed by the ulema that this hadith is da'eef. for those that say it is hassan, they say that it was speaking about a certain time ad was abrogated.



haha, funny indeed

your crap above is dismissed

that is what you always say when you have no proof against it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
AhmedBahgat
Golden Member
Golden Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 671


Location: Australia
Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All


Letís have a look at a totally different hadith to the ones in which the prophet warned his sahaba not to write anything he says but the Quran and if they did, they should have deleted it, but if they donít then †they were not really obeying the prophet

In the following hadith which again from Musannad Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, we read the same wrong actions by the sahaba and we see the prophet stressing for them that what they did is wrong and they must uphold only the Book of Allah (The Quran)

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/hier.asp?Doc=6&n=10611

Ishaq Ibn Isa told me that Abdul Rahman Ibn Zaid knew from his father who knew it from Ataa Ibn Yassar that Abu Hurairah said:

We were sitting down writing what we hear from the prophet salla Allah alaihi wa sallam, he came to us and said: What is that which you are writing. We said: it is what we hear from you, then he said: Another book with the Book of Allah?, we said: it is what we hear, he said: Write down the book of Allah, uphold the Book of Allah, what! Another book but the book of Allah?. Uphold the Book of Allah, Abu Hurairah said: So we collected what we wrote ALL TOGETHER and burnt it with fire, then we said: O Rasool Allah, can we talk about you?, he said: Yes you can talk about me and there should be no blame on you, and whoever lies about me deliberately, then his seat in hell will be secured. Then we said: Can we talk about the children of Israel?, He said: Yes you can talk about the children of Israel and there should be no blame on you, and whatever you say about them but there is more to wonder about them


The above hadith is clear that THERE SHOULD BE NO BOOK NEXT TO ALLAH BOOK, see how the prophet said it: Write down the book of Allah, uphold the Book of Allah. What! Another book but the book of Allah?. Uphold the Book of Allah

See how the sahaba MUST OBEY the prophet: So we collected what we wrote ALL TOGETHER and burnt it with fire

Now, see how he advised them that talking about him should only be VERBAL: Yes you can talk about me and there should be no blame on you, and whoever lies about me deliberately, then his seat in hell will be secured

200 years later, the huge warning by the prophet was totally ignored and they started creating many other hadith books next to Allah Book

Isnít obvious that those freaks who uphold such books next to Allah Book are clear cut Mushrikoon who did not obey the prophet and only obeyed Satan?

I leave it to the reader to judge, I guess everyone was given a brain

Salam

you need to look at the hadith in its context. this is when you refer to the tafsir and other islamic sources.

it has been agreed by the ulema that this hadith is da'eef. for those that say it is hassan, they say that it was speaking about a certain time ad was abrogated.



haha, funny indeed

your crap above is dismissed

that is what you always say when you have no proof against it.


haha, funny indeed

I don't have to prove anything to anyone BUT myself

Also I'm not going to waste my time with some freaks ho classify that hadith as daeef (weak), because calling it weak means nothing but conjectures for many, it is not weak for many others especially  it complies 100% with the Quran message and many other hadith that I have shown, it also complies ith the common sense, but I know well that those brainwashed will call all their cheap tricks to dismiss it, similar to the brainashed from the christians if you tell one of them that Jesus is not the son of God but a human like me and you

hat is weak is the freaks who call it weak while Ahmed ibn hanbal (the good friend of Bukhari) included in his Mussanad

I'm still searching through the nine books of hadith, I will have more to show, trust me
_________________
And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ibnishaq
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 155


Location: USA
Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And ahmed ibn hanbal's collection is not classified sahih and every hadith collector said they are not infallible and there will be mistakes. this is why there is ulum al-Hadith.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
AhmedBahgat
Golden Member
Golden Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 671


Location: Australia
Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="ibnishaq"]And ahmed ibn hanbal's collection is not classified sahih
Quote:


And who had authority to classify your other man made book to be Sahih?



Let me tell you then you Mushrik:

Here is what Sahih Muslim is telling us regarding the last speech of the prophet:


The Book of Pilgrimage (Kitab Al-Hajj)
hadith no 2803, fourth paragraph

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/funda.../hadithsunnah/muslim/007.smt.html

The first claim of ours on blood-revenge which I abolish is that of the son of Rabi'a b. al-Harith, who was nursed among the tribe of Sa'd and killed by Hudhail. And the usury of she pre-Islamic period is abolished, and the first of our usury I abolish is that of 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib, for it is all abolished. Fear Allah concerning women! Verily you have taken them on the security of Allah, and intercourse with them has been made lawful unto you by words of Allah. You too have right over them, and that they should not allow anyone to sit on your bed whom you do not like. But if they do that, you can chastise them but not severely. Their rights upon you are that you should provide them with food and clothing in a fitting manner. I have left among you the Book of Allah, and if you hold fast to it, you would never go astray. And you would be asked about me (on the Day of Resurrection), (now tell me) what would you say? They (the audience) said: We will bear witness that you have conveyed (the message), discharged (the ministry of Prophethood) and given wise (sincere) counsel. He (the narrator) said: He (the Holy Prophet) then raised his forefinger towards the sky and pointing it at the people (said):" O Allah, be witness. 0 Allah, be witness," saying it thrice. (Bilal then) pronounced Adhan and later on Iqama and he (the Holy Prophet) led the noon prayer. He (Bilal) then uttered Iqama and he (the Holy Prophet) led the afternoon prayer and he observed no other prayer in between the two.


-> See, I have left among you the Book of Allah, and if you hold fast to it, you would never go astray, THERE IS NO MENTION THAT HE LEFT HIS SUNNAH OR AHL ALBAYT IN THIS HADITH BY MUSLIM, ONLY THE QURAN AND HE EVEN TOLD US THAT IF WE HOLD FAST TO IT, WE WOULD NEVER GO ASTRAY


See, in Sahih Muslim the prophet did not say that he left the sunnah along with the Quran hahahaha




Quote:
and every hadith collector said they are not infallible and there will be mistakes. this is why there is ulum al-Hadith.


hahahahaha, the science of conjectures and hearsay,

look mister confused, it sounds to me like this:

you as a queer ants to leave Islam, and because the hearsay sunnah orders killing the queers, you want it to be true so you say that's it, I'm leaving Islam

Ibnishaq, all your arguments are crap to be honest

cheers
_________________
And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
BMZ
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 436



Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
 that is what you always say when you have no proof against it.


Hello, ibnishaq,

Ahmed gives you enough proof and that is what you always say at the end.  Laughing

BMZ

_________________
Ali Sina:"Go to a public place, call friends with video and preferably the media as well. Then in front of everyone, remove your veil and set it on fire. Then announce in loud voice, "I am free" (Edited)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
AhmedBahgat
Golden Member
Golden Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 671


Location: Australia
Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good morning all

Yesterday I had a heated but friendly live debate with a sunni from www.alqaheraalyoum.net his name is ďUser", he is actually a very nice guy as well sounds knowledgeable, the discussion happened on Windows Live as he requested, so we had a long discussion regarding the following:

-----------------------------------
Ahmed said in his article ĎTas-hih Al Bukharií

What really puzzles me that the order was clear that we should rule with what Allah has revealed, that was not something new with the religion of Islam, it was the exact same order for the previous people (They should have ruled with what Allah revealed to them) whom they had no books of hearsay hadith that describe to them what their prophets were doing in their daily life, like having sex with their wives for example or having a bath with their wives while they had their periods. no doubt that such non sense by Bukhari which he included in his hearsay book contradict the Quran, Allah is telling us to totally avoid our wives when they are having the period yet Bukhari is telling us that he heard some people saying that Mohammed was bathing with his wives while they had the period, Bukhari even dared to include in his foolish non sense book that he heard someone saying that he heard that the prophet was even covering their bottom half and approaching them through the top half while they were having the period, here is what Allah told us to do when our wives are having the period:

And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a harm; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.

[The Quran ; 2:222]

وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْمَحِيضِ قُلْ هُوَ أَذًى فَاعْتَزِلُواْ النِّسَاء فِي الْمَحِيضِ وَلاَ تَقْرَبُوهُنَّ حَتَّىَ يَطْهُرْنَ فَإِذَا تَطَهَّرْنَ فَأْتُوهُنَّ مِنْ حَيْثُ أَمَرَكُمُ اللّهُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ التَّوَّابِينَ وَيُحِبُّ الْمُتَطَهِّرِينَ (222)

-> See how it is presented in 2:222, Allah is telling us that the people asked Mohammed about menstruation, And they ask you about menstruation. , †so the Teacher of Mohammed (Allah) is teaching Mohammed to reply to them as follow: Say: It is a harm; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean;, three Arabic words are used that irrefutably indicate that we should never come near them while they have the period, the words are : أَذًى , اعْتَزِلُواْ and لاَ تَقْرَبُوهُنَّ, Azza, Iettazilu and La Taqrabuhunna, i.e. harm, keep aloof from and do not go near them , at least these words mean that we should never approach them for any sexual desire while they are having the period.

Therefore, if Mohammed was taught as such by Allah in 2:222 then Mohammed suppose to have taught the people as such after they asked him ( they ask you about menstruation), (SayÖ.), then how come mister Bukhari wants us to believe his authenticated hearsay that he included in his sahih book which clearly show that †the prophet was doing the opposite:

Here is a Bukhari hearsay hadith telling us the Mohammed was reading the Quran while leaning on Ayshaís legs when she was sitting down and while she had the period:


Here is my poor translation to it:

Abu Naim Alfadl Bin Dakin TOLD us that he HEARD Zuhaira SAYIINS about Mansour Bin Saffiah that his mother TOLD him that Aysha TOLD her:

The prophet (Salla Allahu Alaihi Wa Sallam) was leaning on my legs when I sat down while I had the period then he used to †read Al Quran


Hmmmm, so the prophet was so desperate to read the Quran while leaning on Aysha legs who was sitting and having her period, possibly the prophet was reading verse 2:222 above?, well what else I can say?, yeh here is something I have to say:

Who the hell is †Abu Naim Alfadl Bin Dakin? (Abu Naim Alfadl Bin Dakin TOLD us)

And who the hell is †us? (Abu Naim Alfadl Bin Dakin TOLD us)

And who the hell †is Zuhaira? (that he HEARD Zuhaira)

And who the hell is †Mansour Bin Saffiah? (SAYIINS about Mansour Bin Saffiah)

And who Saffiah? (that his mother TOLD him)

Can you see the chain of HEASAY?

Well, some hadith advocates may defend the above non sense and say but that was not sex, it was something noble which is reading the Quran (yep reading 2:222), ok letís look at the next one in Sahih Bukhari:


Here is my poor translation to it:

Qubaisah TOLD us that Suffian Bin Mansour SAID about Ibrahim who SAID about Alaswad, who SAID Aysha SAID:

I was bathing with the prophet (Salla Allahu Allaihi Wa Sallam) from the same water container and both of us were JUNUB, and he used to order me to cover my bottom half and approach me while Iím having the period, he also used to get his head out for me to wash it while he was MUTTAKKIF and I was also having the period


Now this is disgusting and has to be a clear cut lie, not only that this Bukhari hearsay tell us that the prophet violated 2:222 which he supposed to have taught the people and himself, but it also portray Aysha as a non decent wife who was talking about sexual secrets between herself and her husband to strangers.

What makes total non sense is this, as if the prophet while he was MUTTAKKIF (seeking refuge by Allah in isolation), needed someone to wash his head, as if he canít wash his head alone.

Again can you see the chain of HEARSAY?

My regular inquiry stands, who the hell are those new people, Qubaisah, †us, Suffian Bin Mansour , Ibrahim and Alaswad?

The above non sense was repeated by Bukhari in his sahih but through different chain of hearsayers whom we absolutely know nothing about but more hearsay, Bukhari wants us to take what they said for granted:


Here is my poor translation to it:

Abu Alnumaan TOLD us that Abdul Wahid TOLD us that Shaibani SAID that Abdullah Bin Shaddad SAID that he HEARD Maimoona used to SAY:

The prophet (Sallah Allahu Alaihi Wa Sallam), if he wanted to approach any of his wives (for foreplay), he orders her to cover her bottom half while she is having the period


What a load of non sense man, that has to be an image of a sexual freak who deliberately violated 2:222 that he supposed to have used †as an answer to those asking him about menstruation, Astaghfar Allah

If the above non sense is related in anyway to the Quran teachings, I say yes, it only contradicts the Quran in two aspects:

1) It violates 2:222
2) It violates what Allah told us about Mohammed that he was conforming himself to sublime morality.

End of quote
-----------------------------------

Brother User suggested that 2:222 means that we should not approach our wives for intercourse while they are having their periods, however we may approach them through their top half, like kissing, hugging, fondling, etc etc, in this case the alleged two hadith above can not be a violation by the prophet to 2:222, he suggested that in the past men used to stay away from their wives in disgust if their wives have the period, so the verse was revealed to correct their wrong and demeaning attitude towards women who have their periods, sort of the verse 2:222 is to defend the women that they are not that dirty when they have their period, sort of to encourage men to approach (if they desire) their wives through any other mean but having intercourse.

Brother User suggested to me that this is what the Tafsir alleged and we should listen to them because they are Ulamaa (scholars), in a way, if you are not one of the Ulamaa then you have no say regarding the subject and you should follow what those Ulamaa say regardless it makes sense or not, as if if the are wrong and we followed them, they will pay the penalty instead of us, makes not sense of course and greatly violate the Quran message which tells us that everyone is only responsible about the own self.

Well, I agree that some tafsires suggested what brother ĎUserí stated, however other Tafsir also suggested what I stated which, †we should not approach them at all if they have their periods, letís have a look:


. وَاخْتَلَفَ أَهْل الْعِلْم فِي الَّذِي يَجِب عَلَى الرَّجُل اعْتِزَاله مِنْ الْحَائِض , فَقَالَ بَعْضهمْ : الْوَاجِب عَلَى الرَّجُل اعْتِزَال جَمِيع بَدَنهَا أَنْ يُبَاشِرهُ بِشَيْءٍ مِنْ بَدَنه . ذِكْر مَنْ قَالَ ذَلِكَ : 3393 - حَدَّثَنَا ابْن بَشَّار , قَالَ : ثنا حَمَّاد بْن مَسْعَدَةَ , قَالَ : ثنا عَوْف , عَنْ مُحَمَّد , قَالَ : قُلْت لِعُبَيْدَة : مَا يَحِلّ لِي مِنْ امْرَأَتِي إذَا كَانَتْ حَائِضًا ؟ قَالَ : الْفِرَاش وَاحِد , وَاللِّحَاف شَتَّى


Taken from: http://quran.muslim-web.com/sura.htm?aya=002

A quick translation to the above:
The (Ulmaa) scholars have differed to what a man should avoid when his wife is having her period, some said that it should be all her body, i.e. he should not let his body touches her body, also Ibn Bashar said that Hamad Ibn Masaada said that Awf said that Mohammed (not the prophet) said: I said to Ubaida, what is allowed to me of my wife if she is having her period, he said, one bed and more than one blanket

As you have read above, some Ulamaa also suggested that 2:222 means, we should not touch our wives at all when the wives have the period, they even suggested that it is ok to share the bed with them as long as each one uses different blanket

From the above I have to honestly say that both (opposite) understanding must be valid, i.e.:

1) 50% that 2:222 means not to approach our wives in any way or manner when they have the period

2) 50% that 2:222 means not to have intercourse with them but it is ok to approach them in the top half for example, i.e. it is ok to touch them for sexual desire even if they have the period as long as no intercourse in the vagina or the anus

What can I say, now a verse that should be very clear, is not clear any more, due to the conflicting tafsirs, what the believers should do?, well it is certain they the believers must be divided, some may accept meaning # 1 (Iím one of those) and others may accept meaning †# 2 †

Actually after this debate I was a bit confused to how some Muslims defend something that can only cause harm (I will explain later), so I went to my wife and raised the subject with her and we discussed it for about an hour while having dinner, she confirmed to me (using her own logic) that both understandings must be valid, she was also the one who suggested that it has to be 50:50, and I have no problem to accept that I may be wrong if I go for meaning # 1 above, however it should be the same for those who go for meaing # 2, i.e. they may be wrong too,

The bottom line is this, when the believers hear many sayings, they should go for the best of it according to the Quran, letís have a look:

Those who listen to the QAWL, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding.

[The Quran ; 39:18]

الَّذِينَ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقَوْلَ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ أَحْسَنَهُ أُوْلَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَاهُمُ اللَّهُ وَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمْ أُوْلُوا الْأَلْبَابِ (18)

-> See, الَّذِينَ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقَوْلَ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ أَحْسَنَهُ , i.e. the verse is talking about Those who listen to the QAWL, then follow the best of it; , i.e. those who listen to the Sayings and follow the best of it, we have been told that they are the ones on true guidance: those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding. , can you see the words men of understanding. , while it is an accepted translation, the Arabic words means those who have BRAINS Aulu Al Albaab. i.e. those who listen to the sayings and follow the best of it are those whom Allah has guided them and they are the ones who have brains.

Now if we apply the above verse to the problem caused by the conflicting Mufasiroon in regards to what they said about verses 2:222, then meaning # 1 for verse 2:222 must be the best of the sayings, this is because of the following reasons:

1) If those following meaning # 1 are wrong then there should be no punishment for them, because 2:222 is not a forced law to approach the wives when they have the period, rather (If the men desire to approach them then they can, as long as not in the vagina nor in the anus) and in this case, those who are following meaning # 1, do not desire to approach their wives at all while the wives are having the period.

2) On the other hand for those who follow meaning # 2, but we discover on the JD that they are wrong, then they must be questionable because the verse is a forced law not to approach the wives while the wives are having their period

How clear is that?

Indeed it is safer to go for meaning # 1 because either way (wrong or right) there will be no punishment, the other party on the other hand must pay for their wrong understanding if it is wrong because they will be considered to have violated 2:222 by approaching their wives while the wives are having their period

You have to also consider that those who are defending meaning # 2, are only motivated to save Bukhari two hadith that allege that the prophet read the Quran while touching his wife who had her period, as well approaching his wives through their top half †

Their reply to the above is the old apologetic excuse that the men in the past used to stay away from their wives when the wives have their period which is considered demeaning to the wives, some †in the past even went to the extreme †by living in different houses, the reality however is †something else, despite there were those who stayed away from their wives when the wives had the period, there were plenty of those who approached their wives through the anus while the wives were having the period, †in fact this is one of the main messages in 2:222 that we should not approach the wives through the anus regardless they have the period or not.

Indeed, there is no demeaning to my wife if I donít come near her (for sexual desire) if she has the period, in fact most of the women themselves if not all, feel very disgusted with themselves when they have their period, but I †still eat with her in the same house, I still sleep next to her in the same bed using even the same blanket (in violation to the alleged tafsir above), and I even touch her (not for sex), like saying goodbye with a kiss when I go to work

What else I may say, man

Well, Allah will judge best between us in what we have differed

Salam


_________________
And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FREE FAITH, EXPRESSION AND THOUGHT Forum Index -> Islam All times are GMT + 11 Hours
Page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 12, 13, 14  Next
Page 13 of 14
 
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum