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Exposing the gang of deceit
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Exposing the gang of deceit  Reply with quote

anna wrote:
The blatant fact that “allah” is not alone is confirmed elsewhere in your book of faith, as demonstrated in this grouping…

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ

Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin

81.19 Certainly His Word is a Holy message.

Occurrences of “laqawlun” in the Koran: 3
Locations: 69.40, 81.19, 86.13



Hello all

Let me expose the gang of deceit led by conman chicken lie, conwoman anna and their ignorant assliker brainout

I only need to reply to one error to expose them and that should be enough to send all of them to the filtheist rubbish bin on earth:

See above how the conwoman anna translated 81:19

such a deceitful woman she is man, I can't believe how ignornat, deceitful, filthy and low most of the kafirs in here

let me now expose the conwoman anna as I did with her gang master chicken lie 2 years ago on free-minds.org and 1 year ago on this web site:

let me start with tis comment by Chicken Lie to me on www.free-minds.org:

January 04, 2006, 07:29:02 PM
Apple Pie wrote:

Thanks for affirming that Jesus is God.....!!!


I replied to him as follow:

January 04, 2006, 07:47:16 PM
AhmedBahgat wrote:

you are a manipulator and a liar, firstly I didn't say that, secondly PROVE YOUR CALIM THAT JESUS IS GOD FROM THE QURAN but not from the hebrow rubbish you post

now the onus is on your neck to prove that the Quran said jesus is god, and if you don't you will be classified in my books as a manipulator, a liar, a fabricator, a confused being and a lost soul

your call



He came back later with this proof:

January 04, 2006, 08:21:40 PM
Apple Pie wrote:

Sure thing...

ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ


Obvioulsy he is an idiot to claim that the Quran says jesus is god then come back with the above line, here is what I told him:

January 04, 2006, 08:32:58 PM
AhmedBahgat wrote:

Excuse me sir

what that suppose to tell me exactly?, I could not see Isa's name any where in the verse neither I read that he is god

here is a the verse and the one before it:

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ (19)

ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِندَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ (20)

[The Quran ; 81:19-20]

-> Verse 81:19 "Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger, "

-> Verse 81:20 "Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne"

Are you suffering from low IQ or somethin bro?, the verses are clear as light it is talking about prophet Mohammad, and even if you dispute that Mohammad was not mentioned, that is fine, you must at least concede, it was about one of Allah messnegers as 81:19 CLEARLY STATES "Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger, "

NEXT AP


He came back with the following rubbish:

January 04, 2006, 08:39:00 PM
Apple Pie wrote:

Now....try exegeting what it states...

Summary of 81.19

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ

Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin

81.19 Certainly His Word is a Holy message.

> Revelation tells us that the ?logos?, or Word, of God, is Jesus
> 81.19 begins by informing us of something that is ?inna?, or certain
> This thing that is certain is applied to ?qawlu?, or Word, via the personal pronoun ?hu?, or His, and possessive affirmative particle ?la? ? thus giving the Word as an inherent attribute of Him
> ?laqawlu? occurs three times in the Koran, and in each occurrence it is beyond any reasonable doubt that it directly refers to Jesus
> 81.19 also informs us that His Word is a ?kareemin?, or holy, ?rasoolin?, or message
> Sura 81 acknowledges Jesus as the Word of God

Summary of 81.20

ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ

Thee quwwatin AAinda thee alAAarshi makeenin

81.20 Lord of power in the presence and possession of the throne, the established one.

> Revelation tells us that the Jesus occupies the Throne of God

> 81.20 builds upon 81.19 by informing us that His Word (i.e. Jesus) with the Holy Message, is ?thee? (genitive case) in possession of ?quwwatin? (singular), or the one (and only) power

> Amazingly, in addition to ?quwwatin? referring to power or strength, it also has the meaning ?and separately twisted portion of two or more which, being twisted together, compose the whole of a rope, and of a string, or thread?

> Thus, ?quwwatin? conveys the idea of two (or more) things intertwined to become one thing

> Revelation informs us that the Lamb is in the ?mesos?, or midst of the ?thronos?, or throne

> Likewise, 81.20 tells us that He is ?inda? (A particle used as a preposition to denote time and place), or in the presence of ?alAAarshi?, or the throne

> There are numerous Koranic examples where allah is ?Lord of the throne?; thus, when the Word (i.e. Jesus) is referred to as Lord of the Throne ? there can be no doubt that Jesus is God

> 81.20 specifically utilizes ?thee? twice in this one ayah; the first is to signify possession of the singular power of the Word, and the second is used to signify the possession of the throne by the Word

> Revelation tells us that the one sitting on the throne is of the appearance of ?sardinos?, or a reddish brown variety of chalcedony

> Interestingly, 81.20 describes the ?arshi?, or throne as ?a red sapphire, which glistens with the light of the supreme?

> 81.20 closes by mentioning ?makeenin?, or the established one, from the root ?makuna? (meaning he made Him to have dominion) which clearly indicates that the Word (from 81.19), is God Almighty

> The authors of the Koran copied the Book of Revelation, and, more importantly, they understood who the Biblical Jesus is. Revelation clearly shows us the deity interchangeability between God and Jesus, as they are one in the same. Ironically, this ayah also demonstrates the same exact thing by showing that the two are, in fact, one in the same


I replied as follow:

January 12, 2006, 12:24:42 AM


"Apple Pie" : Now....try exegeting what it states...

"AhmedBahgat" : Sure, but I hope you don?t mean ?try manipulating what it states...?
Look bro, I don't have time to waste, I will give you a max of 3 lies and if reached, I have to terminate my discussion with you, that is what my book says bro, sorry.

"Apple Pie" : Summary of 81.19
إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ
Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin

"AhmedBahgat" : Good, you pronounced it right, did you do it, or you just copied it then pasted it?

"Apple Pie" : 81.19 Certainly His Word is a Holy message.

"AhmedBahgat" :I guess this is the proposed translation by you to 81:19, thank you for that, let's now examine your translation word for word:

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ, you translated it as : Certainly His Word is, oh please AP, you can fool a non Arabic speaker, but what makes you think that you can fool an Arabic speaker like me?, well here is your first lie, the verse never related the Qawlu to any entity, why the hell you added his to it?, this is how it should be : Most surely it is the Word of

1 lie lost, 2 lies left

رَسُولٍ, you translated it as : message, LOL bro, I guess with this one you can't even fool the NON Arabic speakers because they know very well what Rasoolin means, which surely means Messenger, so to translate it as Message has to be considered a clear cut lie

2 lies lost, 1 lie left

كَرِيمٍ , you translated it as : a Holy, bro what non sense is this, what makes you hallucinate thinking there is sense in what your post?, the Arabic word MUST be translated as : An honoured

You've just lost your last lie bro, bad luck

Let's recap your lies:

You translated the following Arabic verse:

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ
[The Quran ; 81:19]

To this:

Certainly His Word is a Holy message ٍ
[Misleading and wrong translation by AP]

BUT IT SHOULD BE:

Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger
[The Quran ; 81:19]

Your 3 clear cut lies are highlighted in red and the correct translation are highlighted in blue

As I said AP, you are allowed 3 lies only per comment, and you consumed it all in a sentence that is 6 words, wow this means 50% of what you say is nothing but lies, this is no good bro, you will look very bad like this, I'm sure you lost creditability already, I tell you what bro, try to be honest and you may gain it back, did Santa come to you this Xmas?, I'm sure Santa does not visit liars, can you please confirm?

The rest of you comment MUST be ignored bro, too many lies by you and I hate dialoguing with convict liars

Apple Pie wrote:

? Revelation tells us that the ?logos?, or Word, of God, is Jesus
? 81.19 begins by informing us of something that is ?inna?, or certain
? This thing that is certain is applied to ?qawlu?, or Word, via the personal pronoun ?hu?, or His, and possessive affirmative particle ?la? ? thus giving the Word as an inherent attribute of Him
? ?laqawlu? occurs three times in the Koran, and in each occurrence it is beyond any reasonable doubt that it directly refers to Jesus
? 81.19 also informs us that His Word is a ?kareemin?, or holy, ?rasoolin?, or message
? Sura 81 acknowledges Jesus as the Word of God




Summary of 81.20

ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ

Thee quwwatin AAinda thee alAAarshi makeenin

81.20 Lord of power in the presence and possession of the throne, the established one.


? Revelation tells us that the Jesus occupies the Throne of God
? 81.20 builds upon 81.19 by informing us that His Word (i.e. Jesus) with the Holy Message, is ?thee? (genitive case) in possession of ?quwwatin? (singular), or the one (and only) power
? Amazingly, in addition to ?quwwatin? referring to power or strength, it also has the meaning ?and separately twisted portion of two or more which, being twisted together, compose the whole of a rope, and of a string, or thread?
? Thus, ?quwwatin? conveys the idea of two (or more) things intertwined to become one thing
? Revelation informs us that the Lamb is in the ?mesos?, or midst of the ?thronos?, or throne
? Likewise, 81.20 tells us that He is ?inda? (A particle used as a preposition to denote time and place), or in the presence of ?alAAarshi?, or the throne
? There are numerous Koranic examples where allah is ?Lord of the throne?; thus, when the Word (i.e. Jesus) is referred to as Lord of the Throne ? there can be no doubt that Jesus is God
? 81.20 specifically utilizes ?thee? twice in this one ayah; the first is to signify possession of the singular power of the Word, and the second is used to signify the possession of the throne by the Word
? Revelation tells us that the one sitting on the throne is of the appearance of ?sardinos?, or a reddish brown variety of chalcedony
? Interestingly, 81.20 describes the ?arshi?, or throne as ?a red sapphire, which glistens with the light of the supreme?
? 81.20 closes by mentioning ?makeenin?, or the established one, from the root ?makuna? (meaning he made Him to have dominion) which clearly indicates that the Word (from 81.19), is God Almighty
? The authors of the Koran copied the Book of Revelation, and, more importantly, they understood who the Biblical Jesus is. Revelation clearly shows us the deity interchangeability between God and Jesus, as they are one in the same. Ironically, this ayah also demonstrates the same exact thing by showing that the two are, in fact, one in the same


"AhmedBahgat" : Because you have been proven to be a clear cut liar and a conman, the above MUST be dismissed
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[The Quran ; 17:81]
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: Exposing the gang of deceit Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
anna wrote:
The blatant fact that “allah” is not alone is confirmed elsewhere in your book of faith, as demonstrated in this grouping…

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ

Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin

81.19 Certainly His Word is a Holy message.

Occurrences of “laqawlun” in the Koran: 3
Locations: 69.40, 81.19, 86.13



Hello all

Let me expose the gang of deceit led by conman chicken lie, conwoman anna and their ignorant assliker brainout


That's ass licker, moron, not ass liker. Most sexually healthy people like the look of an attractive ass, dodo. Butt based on your FFI avatar, I would say you not only like the look of an ass, but that you even prefer the ass for sex over the vagina based on the position you are pumping from mister poop chute.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

I only need to reply to one error to expose them and that should be enough to send all of them to the filtheist rubbish bin on earth:


How come people show more than one error in the Quran and you never send it to the rubbish bin?

AhmedBahgat wrote:

See above how the conwoman anna translated 81:19

such a deceitful woman she is man, I can't believe how ignornat, deceitful, filthy and low most of the kafirs in here

let me now expose the conwoman anna as I did with her gang master chicken lie 2 years ago on free-minds.org and 1 year ago on this web site:

let me start with tis comment by Chicken Lie to me on www.free-minds.org:

January 04, 2006, 07:29:02 PM
Apple Pie wrote:

Thanks for affirming that Jesus is God.....!!!


I replied to him as follow:

January 04, 2006, 07:47:16 PM
you are a manipulator and a liar, firstly I didn't say that, secondly PROVE YOUR CALIM


Calim? Is that some form of caliphate? Calimphate? Or is it shorthand for calamity?

AhmedBahgat wrote:

THAT JESUS IS GOD FROM THE QURAN but not from the hebrow rubbish you post

now the onus is on your neck to prove that the Quran said jesus is god, and if you don't you will be classified in my books as a manipulator, a liar, a fabricator, a confused being and a lost soul

your call


To where? Australia? Sorry, too expensive unless I sign up for Vonage.
_________________
If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth. --Anthony DeMello


Last edited by Mutley on Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:01 am; edited 3 times in total
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AhmedBahgat
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharmoot Mute

piss of my thread you filthy punk
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Sharmoot Mute

piss of my thread you filthy punk


BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Isn't it a shame that All Brains invited me as well??? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Anyway, why are you doing Darth Vader in the rear? Or maybe C ME P hole.


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If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth. --Anthony DeMello
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Exposing the gang of deceit Reply with quote

Ahmed,

Apple_Pie and the Likes

There is a huge problem these days which the evangelists are facing. Jesus has been turned into a man-god or god-man of many roles, which cannot be justifed and explained using the Holy Bible, which is full of ambiguities and contradictions.

The Christian apologists have tried their best to explain but to no avail. Now they are looking for Jesus in Qur'aan and evangelists like Apple-Pie are trying to look outside the Jewish Holy Scriptures, since the Jews have already confirmed that there is no Jesus in their Holy Scriptures. Here, we have to disregard the Christians' OT, which is a forged copy of the copy of the mistranslation done by 70 hired Jews, who translated the Jewish Holy Scriptures and gave their hirer/employer a bad translation in Greek known as the Septuagint or fonly known as LXX. The Christian holy scripture was written using that bad translation. And you know the pickle the Christians are in.

The apologist has no other alternative left but to try and find Jesus in Islam and Qur'aan. At least he can be found in Qur'aan as a humble Slave of God. In his desire to find Jesus in Qur'aan, the Christian apologists and apple_Pie find words such as 'wa huwa', meaning 'and he is' to mean He is. In "Yakhrujo" meaning "it comes out or he comes out", they see Jesus coming or issuing out or He comes out. Laughing

In the verse, 'Yakhrujo mim-bainas-sulb-e wat-taraaib" Apple_Pie sees Jesus coming out. LOL! He does not understand that the verse is talking about semen coming out or issuing out. He thinks Sulb is Saleeb (cross). Rotflmao. Laughing

Apple_Pie, like Ali Sina does not read, speak and understand Arabic. He writes from Christian resources produced for evangelist. I have written him off as folks at many other non-Muslim sites have written him off as a bigot and a hypocrite.

You are doing a good job by exposing him and you have my full support for doing so.

Salaams
BMZ
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Ahmed,

Apple_Pie and the Likes

There is a huge problem these days which the evangelists are facing. Jesus has been turned into a man-god or god-man of many roles, which cannot be justifed and explained using the Holy Bible, which is full of ambiguities and contradictions.

The Christian apologists have tried their best to explain but to no avail. Now they are looking for Jesus in Qur'aan and evangelists like Apple-Pie are trying to look outside the Jewish Holy Scriptures, since the Jews have already confirmed that there is no Jesus in their Holy Scriptures. Here, we have to disregard the Christians' OT, which is a forged copy of the copy of the mistranslation done by 70 hired Jews, who translated the Jewish Holy Scriptures and gave their hirer/employer a bad translation in Greek known as the Septuagint or fonly known as LXX. The Christian holy scripture was written using that bad translation. And you know the pickle the Christians are in.

The apologist has no other alternative left but to try and find Jesus in Islam and Qur'aan. At least he can be found in Qur'aan as a humble Slave of God. In his desire to find Jesus in Qur'aan, the Christian apologists and apple_Pie find words such as 'wa huwa', meaning 'and he is' to mean He is. In "Yakhrujo" meaning "it comes out or he comes out", they see Jesus coming or issuing out or He comes out. Laughing

In the verse, 'Yakhrujo mim-bainas-sulb-e wat-taraaib" Apple_Pie sees Jesus coming out. LOL! He does not understand that the verse is talking about semen coming out or issuing out. He thinks Sulb is Saleeb (cross). Rotflmao. Laughing

Apple_Pie, like Ali Sina does not read, speak and understand Arabic. He writes from Christian resources produced for evangelist. I have written him off as folks at many other non-Muslim sites have written him off as a bigot and a hypocrite.

You are doing a good job by exposing him and you have my full support for doing so.

Salaams
BMZ

I am in a Christian forum debating this
http://www.christianboard.com
join in the fun.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:01 pm    Post subject: Greetings, Coolway Reply with quote

cooolway wrote:
I am in a Christian forum debating this
http://www.christianboard.com
join in the fun.


Salaams,

My apologies on not writing to you earlier. Will visit that site and hope they do not ban me fast like others. Very Happy

BMZ
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cooolway wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Ahmed,

Apple_Pie and the Likes

There is a huge problem these days which the evangelists are facing. Jesus has been turned into a man-god or god-man of many roles, which cannot be justifed and explained using the Holy Bible, which is full of ambiguities and contradictions.

The Christian apologists have tried their best to explain but to no avail. Now they are looking for Jesus in Qur'aan and evangelists like Apple-Pie are trying to look outside the Jewish Holy Scriptures, since the Jews have already confirmed that there is no Jesus in their Holy Scriptures. Here, we have to disregard the Christians' OT, which is a forged copy of the copy of the mistranslation done by 70 hired Jews, who translated the Jewish Holy Scriptures and gave their hirer/employer a bad translation in Greek known as the Septuagint or fonly known as LXX. The Christian holy scripture was written using that bad translation. And you know the pickle the Christians are in.

The apologist has no other alternative left but to try and find Jesus in Islam and Qur'aan. At least he can be found in Qur'aan as a humble Slave of God. In his desire to find Jesus in Qur'aan, the Christian apologists and apple_Pie find words such as 'wa huwa', meaning 'and he is' to mean He is. In "Yakhrujo" meaning "it comes out or he comes out", they see Jesus coming or issuing out or He comes out. :lol:

In the verse, 'Yakhrujo mim-bainas-sulb-e wat-taraaib" Apple_Pie sees Jesus coming out. LOL! He does not understand that the verse is talking about semen coming out or issuing out. He thinks Sulb is Saleeb (cross). Rotflmao. :lol:

Apple_Pie, like Ali Sina does not read, speak and understand Arabic. He writes from Christian resources produced for evangelist. I have written him off as folks at many other non-Muslim sites have written him off as a bigot and a hypocrite.

You are doing a good job by exposing him and you have my full support for doing so.

Salaams
BMZ

I am in a Christian forum debating this
http://www.christianboard.com
join in the fun.


Salam

Here is somthing coool for you that will slam dunk your christians debaters

Hello All

Chriitians always accuse me of mocking Jesus peace be upon him, however I don't mock Jesus, because Jesus for me is exactly like Mohammad peace be upon both, it is the Christians who mock him for about 2000 years, they made him a joke, many humans at his time pissed on him before they killed him while he cried like a coward, and it suppose to be him, knowing that he has to die for us, this is just a load of non sense, I don't believe that Jesus died on the cross any way, so it is the Christians who mock him, not me, I'm defending him against that mocking by the Christians indeed.

Firstly to suggest that by calling Jesus son of god metaphorically will make him the son of god for real then all these humans must also be sons of god for real.
Jesus was calling his disciples as his children:

Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

John ; 13:33]

Would that mean that the disciples are also gods? Because they were described as the children of Jesus The son of god

In another location in John's Gospel we see Jesus telling the Jews, that Satan is their father:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[John ; 8:44]

Would that mean that all the Jews are the sons of the devil Satan?

In Luke, we read that Adam was the son of god:

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

[Luke ; 3:38]

Would that mean Adam is exactly like Jesus and both are sons of god and consequently gods?

In Mark describing the leader who cried then died as being the son of god:

And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

[Mark ; 15:39]

Would that mean that this human also is like Jesus, i.e. another son of god?

However we see Luke talking about the same man but instead of describing him as son of god, Luke described him as Certainly this was a righteous man.


Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

[Luke ; 23:47]

Would that mean during this age, the son of god really means a righteous man?

The issue is not really being a son of god, because for him to be able to morph between a human and a god as many Christian claim, it has to mean that he had god quality to be able to achieve that miracle of changing status between a human and a god, for them to say that he is not a god but a son of a god is an escape try to the dilemma they created for themselves when they first called Jesus the god himself, they needed to find a way out after they realized that He can't be god himself, otherwise god himself is dead, so they say: no Jesus is not god but his son, well let me tell all of you then, being a son of a god would that mean that we have another god beside the main god?

They won't be able to escape that argument, so the whole issue really is proving that he is another god not a mere son of a god, but none of the Bible human writers believed that Jesus was a God or carry any God quality:

None of the Bible's Writers Believed that Jesus is God

Christians and Muslims both believe in Jesus, love him, and honour him. They are, however, divided over the question of his divinity. Fortunately, this difference can be resolved if we refer the question to both the Bible and the Quran, because, both the Bible and the Quran teach that Jesus is not God.

It is clear enough to everyone that the Quran denies the divinity of Jesus, so we do not need to spend much time explaining that. On the other hand, many people misunderstand the Bible; they feel that the belief in Jesus as God is so widespread that it must have come from the Bible. The following evidences will show quite conclusively that the Bible does not teach that. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is not God. In the Bible God is always someone other than Jesus.

Some will say that something Jesus said or something he did while on the earth proves that he is God. The evidences will show that the disciples never came to the conclusion that Jesus is God. And these are people who lived and walked with Jesus and thus knew first hand what he said and did. Furthermore, we are told in the Acts of the Apostles in the Bible that the disciples were being guided by the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is God, surely they should know it. But they did not. They kept worshipping the one true God who was worshipped by Abraham, Moses and Jesus:

The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

(The Acts ; 3:13)

All of the writers of the Bible believed that God was not Jesus. The idea that Jesus is God did not become part of Christian belief until after the Bible was written, and took many centuries to become part of the faith of Christians.

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God:

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

(Mark ; 10:18)

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

(Matthew ; 19:17)

They believed that he was the son of God in the sense of a righteous person as I explained earlier. Many others too, are similarly called sons of God:

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

(Matthew ; 23:9}

Paul, believed to be the author of some thirteen or fourteen letters in the Bible, also believed that Jesus is not God. For Paul, God first created Jesus, then used Jesus as the agent by which to create the rest of creation:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

(Colossians ; 1:15)

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

(1Corinthians ; 8:6}

Similar ideas are found in the letter to the Hebrews, and also in the Gospel and Letters of John composed some seventy years after Jesus. In all of these writings, however, Jesus is still a creature of God and is therefore forever subservient to God:

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

(1 Corinthians ; 15:28}

Now, because Paul, John, and the author of Hebrews believed that Jesus was God's first creature, some of what they wrote clearly show that Jesus was a pre-existent powerful being. This is often misunderstood to mean that he must have been God. But to say that Jesus was God is to go against what these very authors wrote. Although these authors had this later belief that Jesus is greater than all creatures, they also believed that he was still lesser than God. In fact, John quotes Jesus as saying:

The Father is greater than

(John ; 14:28}

And Paul declares that the head of every woman is her husband, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God:

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

(1 Corinthians ; 11:3}

Therefore, to find something in these writings and claim that these teach that Jesus is God is to misuse and misquote what those authors are saying. What they wrote must be understood in the context of their belief that Jesus is a creature of God as they have already clearly said.

So we see then, that some of the later writers had a higher view of Jesus, but none of the writers of the Bible believed that Jesus is God. The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one true God, the one whom Jesus worshipped:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(John ; 17:3}

To be continued.....
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And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello All

I don't believe that Jesus was a god or a son of a god and as you can see I'm not using the Quran to prove it to myself, because simply the Christians don't believe in it, what I'm using is what they believe in, therefore they have to read carefully and try to prove my understanding wrong, let's look at the evidences from the Acts:

Evidence From Acts of the Apostles

Jesus performed many miraculous wonders, and he without doubt said a lot of wonderful things about himself. Some people use what he said and did as proof that he was God. But his original disciples who lived and walked with him, and were eyewitnesses to what he said and did, never reached this conclusion. The Acts of the Apostles in the Bible details the activity of the disciples over a period of thirty years after Jesus was lifted up to heaven. Throughout this period they never refer to Jesus as God. They continually and consistently use the title God to refer to someone other than Jesus.

Peter stood up with the eleven disciples and addressed the crowd saying:

Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited to you by God with miracles, wonders and signs which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know

(Acts 2:22)

It was God, therefore, who did the miracles through Jesus to convince people that Jesus was backed by God. Peter did not see the miracles as proof that Jesus is God.

In fact, the way Peter refers to God and to Jesus makes it clear that Jesus is not God. For he always turns the title God away from Jesus. Take the following references for example:

God has raised this Jesus . . .

(Acts 2:32)

God has made this Jesus both Lord and Christ

(Acts 2:36)

In both passages, the title God is turned away from Jesus. Why? if Jesus is God.

To Peter, Jesus was a servant of God. Peter said:

God raised up his servant", where the title servant refers to Jesus

(Acts 3:26)

This is clear from a previous passage where Peter declared:

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus

(Acts 3:13)

Peter must have known that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never spoke of a Triune God. They always spoke of Jehovah (i.e. Yahweh) as the only God. Here, as in Matthew Jesus is the servant of Yahweh:

Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles.

(Matthew 12:18)

If Matthew and Peter are right, then Jesus is not Yahweh, but Yahweh's servant. This proves that Jesus is not God. The Old Testament repeatedly says that Yahweh is the only God :

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me

(Isaiah 45: 5)

If Yahweh is the name of a triune God, then Jesus is excluded from the Godhead since in that case he would be the servant of the triune God. If, on the other hand, Yahweh is the name of the Father only, then the Father alone is God (since Yahweh alone is God) and Jesus is therefore not God. Either way, Jesus is not God. Peter and Matthew were both right about this.

All of the disciples of Jesus held this view. In Acts we are told that the believers prayed to God saying:

And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is

(Acts 4:24)

And it is clear that the one they were praying to was not Jesus, because, three verses later, they referred to Jesus as

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed

(Acts 4:27)

If Jesus was God, his disciples should have said this clearly. Instead, they kept preaching that Jesus was God's Messiah. We are told in Acts:

Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah

(Acts 5:41)

The Hebrew title Messiah (Christ in Greek) is a human title. It means Anointed, we see in Isaiah, Cyrus the Persian is called God's Messiah:

Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

(Isaiah 45:1)

If Jesus was God, why would the disciples continually refer to him with human titles like servant and messiah of God, and consistently use the title God for the one who raised Jesus?

Did they fear men? No! They boldly preached the truth fearing neither imprisonment nor death. When they faced opposition from the authorities, Peter declared:

We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus . . .

(Acts 5:29-30)

Were they lacking the Holy Spirit? No! They were supported by the Holy Spirit:

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them

(Acts 2:3)


Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

(Acts 4:8)


And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

(Acts 5:32)

They were simply teaching what they had learnt from Jesus that Jesus was not God but, rather, God's servant and Messiah.

The Quran on the other hand confirms that Jesus was the Messiah, and that he was God's servant

(And remember ) when the angels said : O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from Him , whose name is the Messiah , Jesus , son of Mary , illustrious in the world and the Hereafter , and one of those brought near ( unto Allah ) .

[The Quran ; 3:45]


He spake : Lo! I am the slave of Allah . He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet ,

[The Quran ; 19:30]

To be continued....
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[The Quran ; 17:81]
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello All

If Jesus is the son of a god then he must be all-knowing and all powerful:

Jesus is Not All-Powerful, and Not All-Knowing

Christians and Muslims agree that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. The Gospels show that Jesus was not all-powerful, for he had some limitations. Mark tells us in his gospel that Jesus was unable to do any powerful work in his hometown:

5: And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6: And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

[Mark ; 6:5-6]

Mark also tells us that when Jesus tried to heal a certain blind man, the man was not healed after the first attempt, and Jesus had to try a second time

22: And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.
23: And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
24: And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
25: After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
26: And he sent him away to his house, saying, Neither go into the town, nor tell it to any in the town.

[Mark ; 8:22-26]

Therefore, although we have the utmost love and respect for Jesus, we need to understand that he is not the all-powerful God.

Mark also reveals that Jesus had limitations in his knowledge, Jesus declared as marked told us that he himself does not know when the last day will occur, but the Father alone knows that

32: But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

[Mark ; 13:32]

Mathew told us the same as Mark:

36: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[Mathew ; 24:36]

Therefore he could not have been the all-knowing God.

Some will say that Jesus knew when the last day will occur, but he chose not to tell. But that complicates matters further. Jesus could have said that he knows but he does not wish to tell. Instead, he said that he does not know. We must believe him. Jesus was a man of truth and he was not a liar.

The Gospel of Luke also reveals that Jesus had limited knowledge. Luke says that Jesus increased in wisdom but God's knowledge and wisdom are always perfect:

52: And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

[Luke ; 2:52]

In Hebrews too we read that Jesus learned obedience:

8: Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered

[Hebrews ; 5:8]

But God does not learn new things. He knows everything always. If Jesus learned something new, that proves that he did not know everything before that, and he was not God. Can he become God later? No! Because there is only one God, and He is God from everlasting to everlasting:

2: Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

[Pslams ; 90:2]

Someone may say that Jesus was God but he took the form of a servant and therefore became limited. Well, that would mean that God changed. But God does not change. He said so Himself:

6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

[Malachi ; 3:6]


Jesus never was God, and never will be. In the Bible, Yahweh alone is God and Yahweh declares:

Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am Yahweh . . .

(Isaiah ch. 43: vv. 10-11}

Some will say that Jesus had two natures, that he was both man and God at the same time. They will say that the limitations we pointed out are limitations in the human nature of Jesus, but his God nature is still unlimited. Notice that the Bible never confirms that Jesus had these two natures. This is a desperate solution offered by those who do not wish to believe what the Bible plainly says. The plain teaching of the Bible, as we have shown, is that Jesus was not God.

This dual-nature solution complicates matters further still. Take for illustration the fig-tree episode in the Gospels:

12: And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14: And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
15: And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
16: And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
17: And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
18: And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
19: And when even was come, he went out of the city.
20: And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21: And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22: And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23: For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24: Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
25: And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

[Mark ; 11:12-25]

Jesus was hungry then saw in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs

Jesus then put a curse on the tree, so that no one could eat fruit from it again. The tree withered from the roots by next morning.

Now, it is clear from this passage that Jesus had a lot of power to curse the tree and make it wither from its roots. It is also clear that Jesus' knowledge was limited on two counts. First, he did not know that the tree had no fruit until he came to it. Second, he did not know that it was not the right season to expect figs on trees.

Proponents of the dual-nature theory will have to admit that the power to curse was in Jesus' God nature. They will have to also admit that his lack of knowledge was due to his human nature. They will have to then conclude that the God nature acted at the behest of the limited knowledge stemming from the human nature. But God does not act on ignorance. Surely He would know, as Mark knew, that it was not the season for figs, and that when fig season arrives that tree will provide fruit for God's creatures. Why would God curse a good tree which he created? Some would like to believe that the tree was barren and therefore deserved to be destroyed. But, if Mark was right, the reason the tree had no fruit according to Mark, because it was not the season for figs

These Bible references clearly show that Jesus was not the all-powerful, all-knowing God.

To be continued......


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And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]
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