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Do ya want GOD -- or not?
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brainout
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Sanitarium wrote:
Please clarify this. Are you saying that any Muslim revert will go to heaven because they were born christian and believed this?
 No one is born Christian.  That's a human expression, and has zippo to do with Bible.  You believe in Christ no matter what religion you are or no religion, and you get saved, John 3:16 didn't have any exclusions in it.  Same idea, in Genesis 15:6, the OT version (really the same, but Christ's Name wasn't known back in Abram's day).  So it doesn't matter if you're even Muslim or Buddhist or whatever, BELIEF Christ paid for your sins seals your salvation, Romans 5 is on that topic.

Next, you ask whether God knew in advance that people would stop teaching Bible so it would become hard to learn.  Of course He foreknew that.  Bible went through that same problem ever since God gave it to Moses.  Within 50 years of Joshua's death, everyone forgot what it said.  This kept on happening about every 200 years, someone would say "hey, wasn't there some BOOK God gave us?"  It's hysterical, the OT:  the people find out, they learn it, they cry over being so uninterested prior -- and then go right back to being uninterested again.  Now:  do you OVERRIDE their disinterest, or do you PRESERVE the material you provided, waiting for that next cycle of interest -- and then again gift the teachers of that RENEWED-interest generation, to understand it de novo?  Your call, what that answer should be.

Notice how all these answers can be seen if one ponders the situation by putting self in God's Place.  The Father and his kids, but the kids are allowed to rebel.  So He foreknows and foreprovides the ABILITY TO READ by empowering that DIRECTLY, via 1John 1:9 and via providing both Book and Teachers.  Notice how clever that is:  YOU MUST HAVE RAPPORT WITH VERY GOD while you read the book.  And what's the book designed to do?  TEACH you to know God better, so you can be INTIMATE with Him.  So well, now:  you need to get that intimacy up front, so you can learn more intimacy via a book which by the way requires intimacy with God Himself, because oh -- who can know a dead language?  Lol, so you need God's Brains!  Which you get, directly too, via 1John1:9.  Not a touchy feely experience, but rather an ABILITY to understand.  Talk about making lemonade out of a lemon situation!

No, I'm not asking you to believe Christianity as the truth.  But you have a Calvinist background, so I'm using that language to answer you.  I'm not asking you as an atheist to test the Bible.  An atheist doesn't need the Bible, he needs to evaluate whether God exists from his own perspective.  God knows what he needs to connect the dots to see God exists.   Some need the Bible to make that determination, others don't.  It's a personal matter at all points, pre-theism, too.  God knows what we need to see to become convinced there even is such a thing AS "God".  Then after that it's a "which God" question, and He foreknows what each person needs to see to identify which God.  See?  It's always a vertical question.  Bible is available to take you the rest of the way, but until you're sure Bible IS the Word of God, there are other steps/paths in your own journey with God.
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brainout
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, if I have the time and live long enough, I'd like to make a video game which is the equivalent of "Sims".  Instead of being god of a polity and crafting what must be that polity's rules, I'd craft a game where I decide WHAT KIND OF GOD I must represent myself as being to people, and WHAT KIND OF SALVATION I must offer.

Then I'd cycle through all the god and salvation concepts in history, proving how only one of them actually works.  Or at least, demonstrating the problems which arise from using any one of them.  Sometimes I think God can't win for losing, for if he grants us free will (true) we only hate him for it.  Typical Grand Inquisitor conclusion.

We mistake God's LOVE for cruelty, for we don't recognize that Love wants freedom, and that means standing off.  Making salvation a matter of one-time faith, but PAYING for it, since obviously it's unfair to create finite creation and EXPECT THEM to pay 'me' (as if I were god) what a) they cannot possibly provide at MY level, and b) hurt the meanwhile.  That's no fun for me either (again, pretending I'm god) -- and if I love this creation I'll make, I'd WANT to pay for it on their behalf, anyway.

Of course that gets into Trinity, for you can't have a salvific solution without it.  And that takes us off-thread, which thread I already answered  in the "apostate" forum here.

Whew.  It's more tiring than I thought, to type this much!


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