I challenge Ahmed Bahgat the wonderful Islamic scholar

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Mutley
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:22 am Post subject:

OK, after we've all had our yuks with Baghat's little joke, it's time to give away the punchline. It's impossible to make the scenario that I raised work. I'll clarify. Obviously, we all know that the inheritance percentages can't add up to more than 100%. That's a no brainer. However, I do not reject the Muslim excuse that the inheritance doesn't have to add up to exactly 100% in all situations, and that some can be left over and distributed to someone outside of the family. That is perfectly reasonable. However, it would be very unreasonable for someone outside of the family to get a larger share of the inheritance than someone inside of the family. Therefore, if someone works the problem out and there is something left over, the amount left over has to be less than any family member's share.

This leads me to the best attempt at solving this problem that I have seen, and it comes from the very respectable Islamic website Understanding Islam. They too realize that the amount left over cannot exceed the amount of a share that someone in the family gets. First, I'll re-quote the verses, and then show the little stunt they tried to pull.

Quote:

004.011
YUSUFALI: Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.

004.012
YUSUFALI: In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.

So here, we can see the following order. Children, parents and then wife. In addition to the order of distribution, the amounts correspond to the order, where the first gets the most and the last gets the least. Children get the most, parents the next most and the wife the least. This makes sense because both the children and the parents are blood relations to the deceased whereas the wife is not, and nothing but a piece of cattle and a sperm repository and a baby repository for future jihadi warriors in their battle to rule the world.

So, let's say the scenario is the following. three daughters, two parents and one wife. That's all. Using a logical, likely and reasonable system, we get 2/3 of the inheritance for the daughters to split, 1/3 for the parents to split and 1/8 for the wife. Obviously, this is a problem as this adds up to 125%. The 1/8 is used up before the wife can get it. So what does understandingislam try? They try and change the order, of course. Obviously, you can't have the 2/3 and 1/3 together. Now, they can try to put 2/3 first as it is mentioned and then switch the order for the wife to go next with her 1/8. So far, so good. it's only 19/24, so there is still some leftover for the 1/3 distribution for the parent. However, 19/24 is not enough for a 1/3 distribution. Therefore, they had to say that the parents get 1/3 of what is left over. An arbitrary claim that is never said in the Quran, but as we all know, they will try anything.

However, they actually didn't try this. They were smarter and knew better, because if 1/3 of the remainder is distributed to the parents, then 2/3 of the remainder would be left to a person outside of the family, which would mean that they would get more than the parents. Very bad. So, what they were forced to try was the following:

1/3 to the parents, 1/8 to the wife and then the daughters get 2/3 of what is left over. Now, once again, there is no statement in the Quran that says the 2/3 is 2/3 of what is left over, but aside from that, maybe it can work. This way, the daughters get 2/3 of the leftover and a person outside of the family only gets 1/3 of the leftover. So you see, they HAD to put the 2/3 last instead of the 1/3, so that nobody outside of the family gets a bigger share than someone inside the immediate family.

However, aside from arbitrarily changing the order of distribution for no compelling reason whatsoever, and aside from arbitrarily saying that the 2/3 is 2/3 of what is left over, there is a major problem that they hope you don't see. And it's right smack honking right in front of us in the beginning of 4:11

Quote:

YUSUFALI: Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance;

So as we can clearly see, it is impossible to say that the 2/3 is 2/3 of what is left over after the parents and wife get their share

SO THEY ARE SLAM DUNKED, DEBUNKED, BUSTED, CAUGHT RED HANDED IN A SNEAKY ATTEMPT OF LYING.

iS THAT ANY SURPRISE TO ANYONE??
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If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth. --Anthony DeMello

Mutley
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:22 am Post subject:

[img]http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CMbcjNSqxrO0CBDYBRhaMgiFAZQXwrvtEQ[/img] The guy says "ooo ooo ooo, I kennot wait to show her I have the sexual prowess of 10,000 men like dee profit. And the woman says, ooo ooo ooo, I cannot wait to have to wear a tent around me for the rest of my life. And then they both say "Thanks Allah !!!" _________________ If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth. --Anthony DeMello

All_Brains
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:45 am Post subject:

Ahmed The courtesy of the one on one debate leads me to leave this debate as Mutely is now back. We're just filling up the time he's away! Just a final note on your response to me. 1. The calculation either way (1/3 or 2/3) still does not make 100% and your response to this is that any surplus goes to poor people and the rest of the family. 2. You insist that "thultha" means 1/3 and not 2/3 against every single translator and your reasoning that the word is a "delayed nominative" (Mubtad'a Mu'akhar) and your apology that it is incorrectly formed in a sentence for delayed nominative is because all grammar is taken from the Quran anyway, so it's ok to bend the rules! Considering that the Arabic grammar was well established way before the Quran and the pre-Islamic poetry bear a witness to that. And Quran itself apply the correct form most of the time, which means one of them has to be surely incorrect! _________________ A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realized God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness. www.all-brains.blogspot.com

AhmedBahgat
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject:

All_Brains wrote:

Ahmed

The courtesy of the one on one debate leads me to leave this debate as Mutely is now back. We're just filling up the time he's away!

Hello

Soory mate, Ugly shit face Mute has been dismissed because he violated the rules and turened the debate into perosanl attack, I'm surprdised you didn't ineterfer, but anyway, I only give the freaks ONE chance, and he lost that chance, therefore he is back to where he should be, the rubbish bin of dimissals

if you want to continue debating me reggarding tis subject, please do but you need to reply to every Quran verse I presented

All_Brains wrote:

Just a final note on your response to me.

1. The calculation either way (1/3 or 2/3) still does not make 100% and your response to this is that any surplus goes to poor people and the rest of the family.

I have already repplied to that

All_Brains wrote:

2. You insist that "thultha" means 1/3 and not 2/3 against every single translator and your reasoning that the word is a "delayed nominative" (Mubtad'a Mu'akhar) and your apology that it is incorrectly formed in a sentence for delayed nominative is because all grammar is taken from the Quran anyway, so it's ok to bend the rules!

No I never said that it is incorrectly put, RATHER CORRECTLY WITH A DUMMAH MUQQADARAH, please read what I write well before you reply

All_Brains wrote:

Considering that the Arabic grammar was well established way before the Quran and the pre-Islamic poetry bear a witness to that.

Wrong, the Arabic grammar was never established before the Quran, in fact all these vowels were created many years later, as well all Arab poetry are full of grammar errors because under poetry you may not follow the grammar rules strictly, this is very well known fact about poetry, the Quran howveer is no poetry

All_Brains wrote:

And Quran itself apply the correct form most of the time, which means one of them has to be surely incorrect!

of course the Quran is noot wrong, and it is them, here is what you need to refute again

you need to tell us why the NOON was ommitted from the word Thultha (assuming it is Thulthan)?

Thanks
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And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]

Mutley
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject:

Well, obviously, my work is done here. So if All Brains or Baal wants to argue about linguistics with you, that's just fine with me. I'll step aside. Personally, I don't even see the need to bother, when every translator who has ever lived disagrees with you and, even if you happened to be right, you then make Allah look retarded with his next recommendation. It's unavoidably stupid any way you slice it. So it's your choice. I'm good with whatever you select. _________________ If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth. --Anthony DeMello

All_Brains
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject:

Hello Ahmed I guess we should leave it at that. Baal, Mutely and I agree with all the translators and the Islamic and non-Islamic interpretation of the verse. Since you have a sole and unique understanding and translation of "thultha" and can't see the mathematical dilemma even if the word is translated as 1/3, then there is no point of going any further on this. We have all produced our proof and presented our point of views and it's now up to the readers to "literally" do the math! I will set up some one on one debate rules, as I do think that this debate could have run a lot more objectively. Regards All_Brains _________________ A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realized God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness. www.all-brains.blogspot.com

Mutley
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:42 am Post subject:

But wait, there's more if you call right now !!! Let's say that bag boy is right. There's another absurdity besides 3 daughters splitting 1/3 but 1 daughter getting 1/2. The daughters split 8/24. The parents split 8/24. The wife gets a mere 3/24, while the unnamed guy down the street gets 5/24. Therefore, someone outside of the immediate family gets more than someone inside the immediate family. Very bad. Now, as I showed before in my long post involving Understanding Islam's attempt, if we, at any point say that any of these percentages actually represent a percentage of what is left over after some has already been distributed (ex. 1/3 for parents is 1/3 of what is left over after distribution to the daughters), then we will inevitably end up giving more to an outside party then someone in the immediate family. The only possible way around this is what Understanding Islam tried, where they say that the 2/3 distributed to the daughters are 2/3 of what is left over after the parents and wife have gotten their cut. But, as shown, this isn't an option either. YusufAli if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance Pickthall and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance Shakir then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, So as we can see, this problem is simply unsolvable, no matter how you try to slice it. Therefore, the inevitable conclusion is that a faulty human wrote these rules and therefore, the Quran cannot be the letter for letter dictation of Allah. Therefore, Muhammad was either lying or completely insane. _________________ If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth. --Anthony DeMello

AhmedBahgat
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject:

Hello A_B Hope you are doing great, let me revive this thread, it's really simple mate, we donlt need tranlsation between me and you, what we need is this: we know the dual of Thulth is Thulthan as appeared in 4:176, you need to tell us under which grammatical rule the thalast Noon has to be ommitted as it appeared in 4:11 assuming it is Thulthan with an ommitted Noon I searched all the books I have as well the net for all the Irab cases of the Dual words and could not find any rule, in fact it seems to me under grammar that the Noon must be there EXACTLY as it appeared in 4:176 cheers _________________ And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish. [The Quran ; 17:81]

Mutley
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:15 am Post subject:

I think Baghat is right,and Allah is a cross eyed retard who would prescribe 1/3 of the inheritence if there are 3 daughters, but prescribe 1/2 is there is one. Baghat's translation is correct and Allah is an absolute moron. _________________ If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth. --Anthony DeMello

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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject:

If there is One daughter she gets One Half, if there is more then one, then they ALL get a total that is less then Half. Thank you Ahmed. And you had to bend the rules to give us this wonderful gem?

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