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Defending Quran: specific defenses
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Baal
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Sura 5.32, that Qu'ran plagiarized from Talmud.  Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
Sura 5.32, that Qu'ran plagiarized from Talmud.  The argument here presumes that if a section in another book is also in the Qu'ran, it MUST mean that it is plagiarized, copied, to make Qu'ran look as though it came from God.

Defense:  Allah would know how to quote something.  Allah would demonstrate omniscience and love by quoting humans.  Here, Allah quotes from the earlier Misha, not the later Talmud.  Bible does the same thing in Old Testament and New, and often.  All of Genesis is just such a quoting, for Moses wrote it in 1440-1400 BC, but the entire book details history from eternity past through the entry of Jacob and his progeny, into Egypt.

Doctrine taught via quoting humans:  that Allah is willing to talk to his creation in their own terms.

More can be said, I just wanted to demonstrate the pattern.

Sorry Brainout, you forget that the koran is made as the Universe was being created, an unchanged stone. Your defense for 5:32 does not hold.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Sura 70.4, that angels require 50K years for travel Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
Sura 70.4, that angels require 50K years for travel:  the argument here presumes the text signifies that it takes angels 50,000 years to travel to heaven and back.  So how could Muhammed get his revelation over only 23 years with repeated angelic visits?  Unsaid, how could the Bible be repeatedly revealed by angels too (i.e., to Daniel)?  For the individual to receive revelation more than once from the same angel in the same lifetime, would be impossible, if the angel comes and goes.

Defense:  the text doesn't say how long it takes angels to travel to heaven.  It's talking about a span of history.  Whether that span of history is 50,000 literal years would have to be examined, as well as what is the starting point for the count (is it 50,000 years from the time the angels began fighting with Allah, or does it measure from Adam's fall, etc).

Second Defense:  if one reads the text to imply a 50,000 year span required per trip for angels, then clearly the angels are stuck here.  If they leave someone to whom they've given revelation, they aren't going back up to heaven, they just go somewhere else (maybe to someone else who also needs a message).

Again, more can be said, i'm just illustrating a pattern.

It is not my fault that the text talks about how long the trip takes. You are trying to change it to mean a stretch of history, but you have no ground to stand on.

Again, the book being written since the universe was created, the angel came over 50K years, revealed the book, then Allah contacted him with the abrogation? Impossible.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Sura 86 and "drop emitted", biologically wrong Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
Sura 86 and "drop emitted", biologically wrong.  Here, translations vary much.  In each case, however, the claim is that the text is meant literally as some kind of proof that Allah knows science, and of course with such wording in ayahs 86.6-7, the 'proof' fails, if the text is meant literally.

Defense:  the text is figurative of creation in general, as ayahs 6-17, demonstrate.  ...

The text is written by the guy who 'created' the process. If this is the imagery he uses for his 'figure of speech', then his imagery sucks. His imagery is bad Brainout. The person who created the process of birth would not have used such a bad imagery. Your defense of this verse fails.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Multiple Persons speaking in the Qu'ran Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
Multiple persons speaking in the Qu'ran:  this is already a topic in the "19:36" thread, so here I'm just taking a position.

Defense:  that the Qu'ran is aping Bible rhetorical style, so is claiming the same type of inspiration;  that is, the EMPOWERMENT of Muhammed to write what he's given, not a literal dictation from God.  This empowerment includes the recording of events which of course predated his lifetime, and has depositionary elements of several speakers.  So to expect Qu'ran to have only one speaker recorded -- which it patently does not -- is not correct.

If you compare the speaking style of Bible's OT, you'll see it aped throughout the Qu'ran.  I submit this is deliberate.  That the Qu'ran might have been TAUGHT as a literal dictation is belied by the text itself.  So that's a misteaching problem, not a Qu'ran problem, maybe.

Again, this is a tentative conclusion.

Put the Bible aside for a moment (Actually fvck the bible for now).

You are taking it for granted that it is many people talking in the Koran.

You are a blasphemer and an apostate if you claim to be a muslim and then claim that it is many people talking.

Yes! muslims expect there is only One speaker. Yes! muslims will not tolerate the idea that it is many people talking in their koran.

Yes islam will suffer a blow if it becomes known that it is many people speaking in their Necronomicon and that their Necronomicon is not similar to the One that Allah wrote when the Universe was created.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
[5.32] For this reason
did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

koran postion, is that Allah made that law to the israelites in previous scrip. koran does not refer to the talmud/mishna nor the oral torah, but 'the torah' the 'scrip'. people of the 'book' (singular)

Allah's position; is that he does not quoting a human, but himself.

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