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ronyvo



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:44 am    Post subject: lying in Islam  Reply with quote

Lying in Islam
Like most religions, Islam in general, forbids lying.
“Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies.” Surah 40:28

However, unlike most religions, within Islam there are provisions under which lying is not simply tolerated but actually encouraged.
“Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families, or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But, keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.”  Surah 5:89

“Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness (vain) in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, most forbearing.” Surah 2:225

“Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith- but such an open their breast to unbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful  penalty.” Surah 16:106

In Hadith from “Ehiaa Oloum al-Din” by the Islamic scholar al-Ghazali, Vol 3:pp284-287:
One of Mohammad’s daughters, Um Kalthoum, testified that she had never heard the Apostle of Allah condone lying, EXCEPT in these three situations:
1- For reconciliation among people
2- 2- In war
3- 3- Amongst spouses, to keep peace in the family

Under the concept of Al-Takeyya and short of killing another human being, if under the threat of force, it is legitimate for Muslims to act contrary to their faith. The following actions are acceptable:
-Drink wine, abandon prayers, and skip fasting during Ramadan
- Renounce belief in Allah
- Kneel in homage to deity other than Allah
- Utter insincere oaths.

Bluntly stated, Islam permits Muslims to lie anytime that they perceive that their own well-being, or that of Islam, is threatened.
That is why we are here, in the West, are flooded by deceptive tactics of all kind of forms in attempt to polish Islam’s image and make it more attractive to prospective converts (victims).
Bukhari:V7B67N427 "The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'"
Qur'an 9:3 "Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations."
Qur'an 66:2 "Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows."
Bukhari:V4B52N268 "Allah's Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.'"
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: lying in Islam Reply with quote

ronyvo wrote:
Lying in Islam
Like most religions, Islam in general, forbids lying.

“Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies.” Surah 40:28

However, unlike most religions, within Islam there are provisions under which lying is not simply tolerated but actually encouraged.


Lying is considered a sin in Islam and it is forbidden in Qur'aan. I think you are mixing the Christian Scripture which contains many lies told by various writers, of whom Paul, the self-loathing sinner, was a big  Liar and a master taqaiyya tactician. According to Paul and Martin Luther, lying for God was a good thing and they wondered what could be so bad about it.  Laughing

Although Martin Luther tried to beat Paul at lies, he could not.

Cheers
BMZ

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then what is "taqiya" ?

Oh yeah, right, its only valid in SELF-DEFENSE, huh...

Or when "islam" gets attacked !

Now, isn't that again a wide and deep playground, for interpretation - what is self-defense and what is an "attack on islam" ?

Maybe ask the jehadis, they will tell you that there are no innocnet kuffars - and yes, islam is getting attacked [never mind if they attacked first], and therefor, everykind of treqachery, including lies, is not only allowed, but asked for
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HomoErectus wrote:
Then what is "taqiya" ?

Oh yeah, right, its only valid in SELF-DEFENSE, huh...

Or when "islam" gets attacked !

Now, isn't that again a wide and deep playground, for interpretation - what is self-defense and what is an "attack on islam" ?

Maybe ask the jehadis, they will tell you that there are no innocnet kuffars - and yes, islam is getting attacked [never mind if they attacked first], and therefor, everykind of treqachery, including lies, is not only allowed, but asked for


Lying has never been allowed, when teaching Islam.
Which is why it is better, people get their knowledge from proper qualified Islamic scholars.
Self-taught invidiuals or people with degrees in Islam are by no means scholars or qualified to speak about it.

Just look at websites like Islamqa.com. No watering down there.

There are those that do it, but that is because they actually believe what they say, so they aren't lying- they're just teaching their own version/understanding of it.

Deceit is allowed in warfare but there are limits to that.
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=10138&ln=eng&txt=deceit


Jihadis can say whatever they want, however if it doesn't hold up to Islamic teachings, then they are in the wrong.
Saying Non-muslims are not innocent is wrong. It is not the view held by great scholars such as the 4 Imams, and it has no shariah basis at all, if you gather all the evidence that is.

At the end of the day, no one is Infalliable, even scholars. They're not perfect and not beyond making mistakes.
So just because groups like AL-Qaeda might have people putting out fatwas that legitimise it, it holds no basis under scrutiny of Shariah or legal rulings from other more prominent scholars.

Funny thing is, i've never even once come across the word Taqqiya on any Islamic website or fatwa site that even speaks of it. Except Islamonline.com that is, but that is merely explaining what it is.
Type it in and you'll find it on every single non-muslim website going and very few if at all, on Islamic websites. What does that tell you?

Islam was hardly the one that invented this concept of lying in warfare was it?
And just who wouldn't lie about their faith, if they were under severe persecution or their life is threatened? Would not jews have attempted to cover up they were jews under Nazi occupation?

This rubbish about Taqqiya and muslims has been used to discredit muslims and to make sure no one ever trusts because morons who don't have the first clue about Islamic teachings seem to think it allows it or even think they understand the concept in Islam.

Its sad.  Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HomoErectus wrote:
Then what is "taqiya" ?

Oh yeah, right, its only valid in SELF-DEFENSE, huh...

Or when "islam" gets attacked !

Now, isn't that again a wide and deep playground, for interpretation - what is self-defense and what is an "attack on islam" ?

Maybe ask the jehadis, they will tell you that there are no innocnet kuffars - and yes, islam is getting attacked [never mind if they attacked first], and therefor, everykind of treqachery, including lies, is not only allowed, but asked for


Nothing of the sort that you put up. Taqaiyya simply means to lie or tell a blatant lie. The one who practices it a liar.

A very easy to understand example of Taqaiyya. George bush told a lie full of deceit and treachery before he ordered the wrongful invasion of Iraq and his accomplices in the Congress/Senate believed and endorsed that lie.

There is no such word as Taqaiyya in Qur'aan. There are many words, which cannot be found in available Scriptures, such as politics, diplomacy, etc. Most of the humans on this planet do tell lies but no Scripture teaches them to lie.

Whenever a Christian brings up this topic, I like to remind him/her that Taqaiyya or lying has been sanctioned in their New Testament. For example the man Paul was the greatest Liar. A liar who acted like a Jew with Jews, acted like a Roman with Romans taking advantage of Roman citizenship. With the Gentiles, Paul behaved like a Gentile. Lies for the sake of his Christian god. That is why I consider him Taqaiyya master tactician.

Regarding Jihadis, Iraqi Resistance and Talebans they are fighting  the Americans , the British and the Nato troops. It is a war zone and in a war, everything is valid and everything goes.

BMZ

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XXX wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
Then what is "taqiya" ?

Oh yeah, right, its only valid in SELF-DEFENSE, huh...

Or when "islam" gets attacked !

Now, isn't that again a wide and deep playground, for interpretation - what is self-defense and what is an "attack on islam" ?

Maybe ask the jehadis, they will tell you that there are no innocnet kuffars - and yes, islam is getting attacked [never mind if they attacked first], and therefor, everykind of treqachery, including lies, is not only allowed, but asked for


Lying has never been allowed, when teaching Islam.
Which is why it is better, people get their knowledge from proper qualified Islamic scholars.
Self-taught invidiuals or people with degrees in Islam are by no means scholars or qualified to speak about it.

Just look at websites like Islamqa.com. No watering down there.

There are those that do it, but that is because they actually believe what they say, so they aren't lying- they're just teaching their own version/understanding of it.

Deceit is allowed in warfare but there are limits to that.
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=10138&ln=eng&txt=deceit


Jihadis can say whatever they want, however if it doesn't hold up to Islamic teachings, then they are in the wrong.
Saying Non-muslims are not innocent is wrong. It is not the view held by great scholars such as the 4 Imams, and it has no shariah basis at all, if you gather all the evidence that is.

At the end of the day, no one is Infalliable, even scholars. They're not perfect and not beyond making mistakes.
So just because groups like AL-Qaeda might have people putting out fatwas that legitimise it, it holds no basis under scrutiny of Shariah or legal rulings from other more prominent scholars.

Funny thing is, i've never even once come across the word Taqqiya on any Islamic website or fatwa site that even speaks of it. Except Islamonline.com that is, but that is merely explaining what it is.
Type it in and you'll find it on every single non-muslim website going and very few if at all, on Islamic websites. What does that tell you?

Islam was hardly the one that invented this concept of lying in warfare was it?
And just who wouldn't lie about their faith, if they were under severe persecution or their life is threatened? Would not jews have attempted to cover up they were jews under Nazi occupation?

This rubbish about Taqqiya and muslims has been used to discredit muslims and to make sure no one ever trusts because morons who don't have the first clue about Islamic teachings seem to think it allows it or even think they understand the concept in Islam.

Its sad.  Rolling Eyes


Well said. Thanks

Salaams
BMZ

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XXX, you do realize that you can permit something through exceptions. For example, the next verse 'permits' for inheriting women against there will.

Quote:
004.019
YUSUFALI: Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

Now we have people actually reading this verse and going: Masha-allah! Koran really does forbid inheriting women against their will!

But really, this verse just permitted you to inherit women against their will. Same thing wiht lying. Koran can start by "Forbiding Lying" and then state the exceptions. And then once the exceptions are taken into consideration, then the koran *does* permit lying.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
Then what is "taqiya" ?

Oh yeah, right, its only valid in SELF-DEFENSE, huh...

Or when "islam" gets attacked !

Now, isn't that again a wide and deep playground, for interpretation - what is self-defense and what is an "attack on islam" ?

Maybe ask the jehadis, they will tell you that there are no innocnet kuffars - and yes, islam is getting attacked [never mind if they attacked first], and therefor, everykind of treqachery, including lies, is not only allowed, but asked for


Nothing of the sort that you put up. Taqaiyya simply means to lie or tell a blatant lie. The one who practices it a liar.

A very easy to understand example of Taqaiyya. George bush told a lie full of deceit and treachery before he ordered the wrongful invasion of Iraq and his accomplices in the Congress/Senate believed and endorsed that lie.

There is no such word as Taqaiyya in Qur'aan. There are many words, which cannot be found in available Scriptures, such as politics, diplomacy, etc. Most of the humans on this planet do tell lies but no Scripture teaches them to lie.

Whenever a Christian brings up this topic, I like to remind him/her that Taqaiyya or lying has been sanctioned in their New Testament. For example the man Paul was the greatest Liar. A liar who acted like a Jew with Jews, acted like a Roman with Romans taking advantage of Roman citizenship. With the Gentiles, Paul behaved like a Gentile. Lies for the sake of his Christian god. That is why I consider him Taqaiyya master tactician.

Regarding Jihadis, Iraqi Resistance and Talebans they are fighting  the Americans , the British and the Nato troops. It is a war zone and in a war, everything is valid and everything goes.

BMZ

The Taliban are foreign invaders as far as Afghanis are concerned. With Ten Schools burned in the last month not a single one of them being a Madrassa.

And in Iraq it is muslims killing muslims and if the States leave now there will be massive genocides as per the admission of member of al-qaeda.

I do not know what Paul did 2000yrs ago, I know what Dennis Hooper and imams preaching in the West are doing. They are lying through their teeth. And it is supported in their scripture. Islam permits it.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
XXX, you do realize that you can permit something through exceptions. For example, the next verse 'permits' for inheriting women against there will.

Quote:
004.019
YUSUFALI: Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

Now we have people actually reading this verse and going: Masha-allah! Koran really does forbid inheriting women against their will!

But really, this verse just permitted you to inherit women against their will. Same thing wiht lying. Koran can start by "Forbiding Lying" and then state the exceptions. And then once the exceptions are taken into consideration, then the koran *does* permit lying.


No. When lying is permitted has been stated, and it is well known  what the conditions for those are.


This whole concept of taqqiyah and everything else has been invented by you non-muslims.

Everytime you think a muslim is lying, its Taqqiyah.
Everytime a muslim says something about Islam that doesn't fall in line with how you understand it- Its Taqqiyah.
When you don't like the answer, it is Taqqiyah.
What a muslim is wrong about something- he isn't ignorant- he is lying and it is Taqqiyah.
When a muslim is clearly lying. It isn't lying. It is religiously ordained lying by Islam called Taqqiyah.


You do not exactly need the Qu'ran to tell you, that you can lie to protect your life or you are being persecuted for your beliefs. It has been done throughout history.
The Qu'ran merely reassures you that if you do it, your faith is not nullified by doing it.

Other then that, Lying is not allowed Period.


Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq said: “Beware of lying, for it has nothing to do with faith.”  
4. It was narrated that Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqaas said: “The believer may acquire all sorts of characteristics except treachery and lying.”  

5.  It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “True faith is not achieved until one gives up lying in jest.”  

(Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah, 5/235, 236)  

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said:

“The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Truthfulness is righteousness, and righteousness leads to  Paradise. A person will continue to tell the truth until he is written with Allaah as one who tells the truth. Lying is evildoing, and evildoing leads to Hell. A person will keep on telling lies until he is written as a liar.’”  
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5743; Muslim, 2607)  

Taqqiyah is a label you use to discredit  muslims and make sure they are distrusted by everyone else.

Maybe if you people actually understood Islam, you would know what Islam teaches about lying. Clearly you don't and never will, because you think you know it all already and don't need some muslims who are clearly trying to deceive you into believing they don't practice it. But you know better right?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
 The Taliban are foreign invaders as far as Afghanis are concerned. With Ten Schools burned in the last month not a single one of them being a Madrassa.

And in Iraq it is muslims killing muslims and if the States leave now there will be massive genocides as per the admission of member of al-qaeda.

I do not know what Paul did 2000yrs ago, I know what Dennis Hooper and imams preaching in the West are doing. They are lying through their teeth. And it is supported in their scripture. Islam permits it.


Now what you wrote is a good example of Taqaiyya from you, Baal.

Talebans, foreign invaders?  Laughing  Talebans ARE Afghans.

There were no Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq before the wrongful invasion by the US and the UK. The credit goes to both of them for causing all this trumoil.

If they leave Iraq, the killings would go on for a while and Iraqis will fix up the mess themeselves.
It is another Taqaiyya from you and the United States. People would prefer their own bad government to the bad occupation of another government based on Taqaiyya.

It is a fallacy to say that there would be civil war and massive killings if the dirty US military left Iraq. That is all BS. Those people who have kept the American miltary busy and engaged for over five years can keep on doing so. This is what the best and the brightest dumb minds of the US cannot understand.

BMZ



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