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Divine Authenticity -- 10 tests

 
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brainout
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject: Divine Authenticity -- 10 tests  Reply with quote

    Although this is in the Christianity section and it mainly applies to how you vet what's "Bible", it has applications to Koran, too.  But try to view it generically, as if all you saw here were hypothetical books, so you can see the underlying testing principles.


    Bible's Deuteronomy 18 has rules for establishing whether some prophet is conveying God's Word, or his own;  whether the written word given, is from God.  Technically, the rule applies for ANY communication, oral or written, in that day.  Jeremiah 28-29 is parallel.  But post-96AD, it's only in writing.

    Investigate Islam provides 10 ways you can tell Islam is not from God.  So here, I list 10 things also: some of them overlap with investigateislam's tally.

    Bear in mind, it applies equally to establishing what's Bible, itself.  Book by book.  For as you know, there are many books which are claimed as Divine by one group of Christians, yet claimed as bogus, by another group.  So in what follows, think about the criteria generically for evaluating any holy book, even when you see specific books (i.e., Koran) mentioned.  For the principle would be universal for any claim of Divinity.  As you think through the 'rules', you'll probably see why.

    1.  Deuteronomy 18's last half is about how you tell a prophet:  what he says, must come to pass, which means a) the prophet must PREDICT something, and b) that prediction has to come true TO THE AUDIENCE, before they can believe in him.  There is also provision for doing some signs, but after 96AD, that was removed as a criterion.  God provided you with a timetable for testing, too.  Mirroring.htm is the head webpage of the mammoth accounting system for Time God has used since Adam, to demonstrate how believers are to TRACK the accuracy of their spiritual lives, and all of God's Promises.  (I don't know of anyone else on the internet who's discovered this in Bible, so vet it carefully, with skepticism.  I learned of it by mistake in May 2004).

    2.  So post 96AD, the sole criterion is you'd have to get writing which you could prove God inspired.  Since demons can inspire too, the issue of Divine Authenticity turns on the CHARACTER of God and people, events, as depicted in the text.  For any piece of writing will reflect its author.

    3. This upgraded in-writing rule isn't in Deuteronomy, but in the New Testament, specifically in Hebrews chapters 1-2 (especially the first four verses of Chapter 1), Rev 21:6-21, other places.  Problem is, the Revelation passage says it's the VERY LAST revelation of God, which is why John writes it in Classical Greek quadrilogy format (Church is Chapters 1-3, Trib begins in Chapter 4 and goes through 19, 19-21 (?) are Millennium, and then the quadrilogy closes in 21 with eternity beginning).

    4.  So how do you know Koran is or is not from God?  Well, like every wanna-be-bible book before it (including Genesis through Revelation),
    • Koran must not contradict what went before, and
    • must tie to EVERYTHING which went before in so comprehensive a manner with such wit and genius that you know a human being could not have authored it.  
    • This is accomplished by the use of keywords.  That is, if "salvation" is a keyword in the Bible, then Koran must tie to EVERY thread about 'salvation' without contradiction.
    • Since there are hundreds of keywords in the Bible, then Koran must tie flawlessly to all of them at every level.


    5. Additionally, it must provide new information;  either new and higher insight than before, or new and higher covenantal provisions than before (i.e., the New Testament is an upgrade on the Old, kinda like Windows was an upgrade on DOS).  The new information must upgrade, hence not contradict the old, but fulfill it -- if the new book fails to do this, then it's not from God.

    6.
    Key:  you can save time in evaluating divinity of a book in two ways:  a) determine the character of the author (fastest) and b) determine what HIGHER 'upgrade' in revelation or covenantal provisions, the book provides.  Most wanna-be-holy books fail a) within ten minutes.  They depict "God" as doing something silly (i.e., ordering a murder and then ordering the murderer dress in the victim's clothes, then imitate the victim's voice to steal property from  the servants, as the Holy Spirit is alleged to do, in Book of Mormon).  So any portions or books which display God as being silly, aren't from God.

    7. Koran claims the Bible was corrupted.  Since that term "corrupted" is vague, you have to ask, "how much?"  and "where?"  We have proof of how much corrupted owing to the thousands of Bible manuscripts which have been preserved in the original-language texts, and since that's the only INSPIRED text, "corruption" properly applies to that alone.  Well, in aggregate you can prove what's correct verse by verse.  About 98% of the texts are identical -- the best ones being of the 4th and 5th century, but there are many prior and later -- with maybe 2% having errors in some verses.  Example:  Genesis 5 roster of the LXX was tampered with, the poor guy adding 100 years at the front end, but subtracting it at the back, attempting to balance to the same death age;  lol, he gave up before he finished the roster, so it doesn't balance!  So since 98% of the actual manuscript copies are all valid and you can audit and prove the errors in that remaining 2%, you can safely say the RIGHT texts are 100% right (where the 2% are wrong, there are other texts which are right).

    That's good to know, since if Allah didn't preserve 100% of what was "sent before", you've NO assurance that the Koran you have, would have been preserved, too.

    So "Bible is corrupted" means what?  Well, certainly the Bible translations are corrupted.  I find a published-Bible translation error every day, drives me nuts when I have to keep stopping to correct the translation in my webpages.  So I'm resorting to retranslating whole chapters (like Isaiah 53, all of 1Jn, probably much of Hebrews and Ephesians).  But the translations, aren't inspired.  

    So when Koran says Bible was corrupt, it depends on WHAT it's referring to as "corrupt".  It's not specific.  Book of Mormon makes the same claim, i.e., that it's the proper copy of the Old Testament, and that the Jews who fled 1st Temple Destruction found their way to America circa 580's BC.

    Like the Book of Mormon, Koran does contradict Bible in key ways.  So the later contradiction (if real), would be a corruption.  But you have to carefully vet both sides, first.  It's like a jigsaw puzzle, verse by verse.  Such is the science of textual criticism (which is about authenticity, not merely dating the language).

    8.  So the Koran must meet the test of being compatible 100% with what was "sent before".  I say Koran, not hadith, because the hadiths are (sorry) laughable, Mad Magazine slapstick.

    9.  What if parts of the Koran are corrupt, but later additions if excised, would leave a substantial amount of the text --- wholly compatible?  That's a possibility, especially since all Korans were destroyed and a replacement one made by Uthman.  Again, you compare verse by verse.

    10.  Ok, presume you did all that legwork.  You're still not done.
      In fact, here's the most crucial Authenticity issue, and it's a Big-Picture Question:  what does the Koran ADVANCE in terms of revelation, versus what was provided prior?  For that is a true test of a new Divine book:  it must ADVANCE revelation of God versus what went before.  On this crucial test question, I see absolutely no advance, but a retrogression,
    • i.e., believers are suddenly promised eternity UNDER the earth, where Hades is;
    • but New Testament says you go UP TO HEAVEN the second you die.  
    • [i]'Sinister implication for believers in the Koran, veiled promise of hell.  
    • Similarly, the Christian is made Royal Family of God (i.e., 1Pet2:5,9, Rev1:6, 5:10), hence closeness in His Presence;  
    • but the believer in Allah only gets lots of -- well, you know.  Earthly stuff, and under the earth, at that.
     In short, this #10 is the biggest test, and Koran presents DOWNGRADED benefits versus the New Testament;  even the Old Testament's benefits for believers were higher.  So where's the revelation?  Just an assertion Muhammed comes from God won't cut it.  There has to be some CLEAR PROOF of a CLEAR ADVANCE which the Koran offers, that was never provided prior.  Heck, Allah doesn't even get paid for sin, in the Koran.  But He does, in NT (Christ) and OT (sacrifices presaging Christ as Lamb of God, see Isaiah 53, http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/Isa53trans.htm ).

    By the way, Book of Mormon failed all the tests quickly.  So it's a common thing, for a wanna-be set of books to fail the test.  I'm still trying to find something in Koran that's an upgrade, or some better interpretation.  I want to find something good.  I don't like contending that a billion people are wrong.

    This brief is not at all sufficient coverage, but it makes for a good introduction.  I'm sure y'all have your own ideas and things to say!

_________________
God needs no defending, and always begs the premise.  For belief of any kind, always needs self-auditing.


Last edited by brainout on Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:54 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Mutley
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's cool to watch you talk to yourself about already answered issues. Soon, you will stop talking to yourself, and actually ask questions that, to your surprise, can actually be answered.

Someday.

But in the meantime, let the mission continue (whatever that mission is, you got me on that one).
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If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth. --Anthony DeMello
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. why was miracle taken off as sign of critereon? what you ignore that part of bible now?

2. muhammad did make prophecy.. that the romans would defeat the persians. it happened
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brainout
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaq, I already explained about the Roman thingy in this forum, and also in FFI's forum.  That's not a fulfillment of a miracle.  At the time Muhammed got his revelations, Rome had won, then Persia, then Rome again, and it was the Persian king who told Rome they'd win the next time.  

However, that doesn't invalidate Muhammed.  For the gift of prophecy ended in 96AD.  So the only kind of allowed revelation would have to be something taught in writing, and the big question is, whether or not the Koran is a new Divine Book from Allah, or a teaching.  Muslims claim Muhammed is the last prophet.  Well, if that is true, then the writing would have to be tested for authorship.

If Allah gave the words to Muhammed, then the book itself -- just as Muhammed claimed -- would be the "sign".  That is why FFI and others dispute the Qu'ran, because it has problems in it.  That is why it must be tested.

But the same thing can be said for ALL Bible books, from Genesis forward.  Who would believe Moses?  Couldn't Moses have made up a book and claimed it was from God?  Sure he could.  So Moses' books had to be tested.  Every book after Moses had to be tested.

So the Koran should be tested.  My complaint and the complaint of many non-Muslims is that Muslims DO NOT TEST the Qu'ran and do not answer objections, but instead play games.

But you shouldn't worry about the need to test the Koran.  Every book which claims to be from God has to go through the same thing.  Do you now see why?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mutley wrote:
It's cool to watch you talk to yourself about already answered issues. Soon, you will stop talking to yourself, and actually ask questions that, to your surprise, can actually be answered.

Someday.

But in the meantime, let the mission continue (whatever that mission is, you got me on that one).


Laughing Spot on.

BMZ


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