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"Born-again", "Saved": what is it?
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Fathom
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:58 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
Your posited definition of houtws is wrong here because its ATTIC usage being employed in John 3:16.  I explained the usage in my post.  If you don't agree, fine:  my pastor explained it in detail, you can get it from him.  It modifies agape, and is NOT a "manner" but a DEGREE.  It's proleptic (out of order, first in sentence).

Both Thayer and Bauer Danker lexicons note that it's idiomatic even in koine to translate houtws as signifying degree/extent when a) it precedes the verb (gar being post-positive is treated as not invalidating that), and b) when coupled with hwste (the latter being Attic).  Several examples are given both inside and outside Bible in Bauer, Danker.  Thayer's lexicon you can get online somewhere, I heard.  Bauer, Danker lexicons are in many versions, but I know of none on the internet.  You'll have to check these yourself, I don't have time to deal with this further.  Again, my pastor taught from the Greek and Hebrew texts for over 53 years, and in the year 2000 spent several weeks on this, so if you want you can get the exegesis for free from his church, start with lesson #1890 of "Spiritual Dynamics" (series 376, I think), www.rbthieme.org.  You'll need a good 30 lessons, but the mp3 containing 1890 will probably have enough.

I got work to do.  It will be a long time before I come back here.  Enjoy!


Sorry, and I don't mean to insult in any way, but your paster is dead wrong and very guilty of both literal translation and failure to consider the context of the verses. He's also over-analyzing the text.

I can see your pastors mistake very clearly; he's breaking his train of thought with the verse numbers and considering each verse on its own instead of in the context. He should be removing the verse numbers from his mind and dealing with the verse in the context of the complete train of thought of Jesus. In this way, he would have seen that houtws is a continuation from John 3.15, and refers to the text of John 3.15.

There is absolutely no doubt about this whatsoever. "gar" is rightfully translated as "because" when you consider houtws in the context as meaning "Likewise etc." Classical Attic Greek might much more commonly use a TOSOUTON where John 3:16 has
hOUTWS, but the Koine of John is considerably looser in its diction.

John 3:16 hOUTWS is translated as "so" loved... But "so" is usually misunderstood to mean "so much." It can on rare occasion mean that, but its root idea is that of "in this way/manner." Translations made in the past 15 years or so have begun to translate it as the HCSB has done " For in this manner ..."

God bless the soul of your pastor, but I feel his scholarship is lagging behind.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: "Born-again", "Saved": what is it? Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Which sin was paid for on the cross?


No sin in particular. That is a post-Jesus doctrine, which even Jesus did not know and he never mentioned.




Mark 10

Quote:
32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, 33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: 34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.


Matthew 20

Quote:
17Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, 18"We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"


Luke 18
Quote:
31Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. 33On the third day he will rise again."

34The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.



BMZ wrote:

All_Brains wrote:
 And do I still go to heaven "be with God" if I sinned a great deal, but believed in JC?


No. Believeing in God would be a bet more safer instead of just relying on JC. Remember JC also cried out loud to God?

BMZ


Actually, in Islam, you have the book of records where every deed is recorded and weighed on a scale. All bad needs need to be re-payed with good deeds. Sometimes Muslims try to borrow the Christian concept because it's appealing to think that you can simply be forgiven.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: "Born-again", "Saved": what is it? Reply with quote

Mutley wrote:
BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Which sin was paid for on the cross?


No sin in particular. That is a post-Jesus doctrine, which even Jesus did not know and he never mentioned.




Mark 10

Quote:
32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, 33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: 34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.


Matthew 20

Quote:
17Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, 18"We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"


Luke 18
Quote:
31Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. 33On the third day he will rise again."

34The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.



BMZ wrote:

All_Brains wrote:
 And do I still go to heaven "be with God" if I sinned a great deal, but believed in JC?


No. Believeing in God would be a bet more safer instead of just relying on JC. Remember JC also cried out loud to God?

BMZ


Actually, in Islam, you have the book of records where every deed is recorded and weighed on a scale. All bad needs need to be re-payed with good deeds. Sometimes Muslims try to borrow the Christian concept because it's appealing to think that you can simply be forgiven.


Mark 10, Matthew 20 and Luke 18 have nothing to do about the so-called sin. None of them talks even about the original or the first sin. They don't even mention that the sin was related to the one committed by Adam and Eve.

However, I do agree with this whole-heartedly
:
Quote:
34The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.


It is common knowledge that the disciples never understood what Jesus spoke. They are on record for not understanding Jesus. The Doctrine of Sin was concocted after Jesus was long gone and this is a fact which not a single Christian can deny.

Muslims have not borrowed a single concept or doctrine or teaching of Christianity, which in itself is a distortion of Judaism and the Torah. There is no theory of sin in Islam. The mention of Jesus does not constitute any borrowing.

God is loving. Right? So how could God punish humanity for the mistake of Adam and Eve? Since God is full of love, according to Islam, God forgave both of them and showed love.

What Jesus went through and the punishment he received, was an act by people and had nothing to do with God. It was not ordained.

By the way, about the "three days stay", I have something to bring to the attention of Christians, who  merrily quote Jonah's stay in the belly of the fish. Please note that Jonah LIVED in the belly and did not die. Same goes for Jesus, if you read the New Testament carefully.  Very Happy

Cheers
BMZ  
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Mutley
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: "Born-again", "Saved": what is it? Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Mutley wrote:
BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Which sin was paid for on the cross?


No sin in particular. That is a post-Jesus doctrine, which even Jesus did not know and he never mentioned.




Mark 10

Quote:
32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, 33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: 34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.


Matthew 20

Quote:
17Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, 18"We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"


Luke 18
Quote:
31Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. 33On the third day he will rise again."

34The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.



BMZ wrote:

All_Brains wrote:
 And do I still go to heaven "be with God" if I sinned a great deal, but believed in JC?


No. Believeing in God would be a bet more safer instead of just relying on JC. Remember JC also cried out loud to God?

BMZ


Actually, in Islam, you have the book of records where every deed is recorded and weighed on a scale. All bad needs need to be re-payed with good deeds. Sometimes Muslims try to borrow the Christian concept because it's appealing to think that you can simply be forgiven.


Mark 10, Matthew 20 and Luke 18 have nothing to do about the so-called sin. None of them talks even about the original or the first sin. They don't even mention that the sin was related to the one committed by Adam and Eve.

However, I do agree with this whole-heartedly
:
Quote:
34The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.


It is common knowledge that the disciples never understood what Jesus spoke. They are on record for not understanding Jesus. The Doctrine of Sin was concocted after Jesus was long gone and this is a fact which not a single Christian can deny.

Muslims have not borrowed a single concept or doctrine or teaching of Christianity, which in itself is a distortion of Judaism and the Torah. There is no theory of sin in Islam. The mention of Jesus does not constitute any borrowing.

God is loving. Right? So how could God punish humanity for the mistake of Adam and Eve? Since God is full of love, according to Islam, God forgave both of them and showed love.

What Jesus went through and the punishment he received, was an act by people and had nothing to do with God. It was not ordained.


Why do you believe that?

BMZ wrote:

By the way, about the "three days stay", I have something to bring to the attention of Christians, who  merrily quote Jonah's stay in the belly of the fish. Please note that Jonah LIVED in the belly and did not die. Same goes for Jesus, if you read the New Testament carefully.  Very Happy

Cheers
BMZ  


And how much of what Jesus said are you supposed to take literally? Like I told you before, Islam is the right religion for you.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject: Saved or born again... Reply with quote

When we are born, we are born human. Nothing more, nothing less...

Being saved or born again, is a "scare tactic" that someone invented after realizing that the weak minded majority could easily be swayed into following ideas for the benefit of the inventor, and not the follower...

I am no follower...And if invented any such thing, you can bet that I will ensure to have YOU, as my most dedicated follower!!!

Do you remember the reverend Jones, in Guyana, South America, in the 1980's???


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