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Apocryphal gospels in the Quran

 
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:55 am    Post subject: Apocryphal gospels in the Quran  Reply with quote

Muslim BMZ asked for a list of the apocryphas gospels incorporated into the Quran.  I found a document which does just that:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Arlandson/apocryphal.htm

In addition there is another article, which spells out other non-Biblical sources used by Muhammad while compiling the Quran.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Tisdall/Sources0/index.htm

Any Muslim who is really interested can read the articles and respond.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy crap man

can't you just list it using your own bloody words instead of parroting urls  from anti Islam web sites?

you sound like a real confused freak to be honest
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:36 am    Post subject: Re: Apocryphal gospels in the Quran Reply with quote

David wrote:
Muslim BMZ asked for a list of the apocryphas gospels incorporated into the Quran. I found a document which does just that:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Arlandson/apocryphal.htm

In addition there is another article, which spells out other non-Biblical sources used by Muhammad while compiling the Quran.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Tisdall/Sources0/index.htm

Any Muslim who is really interested can read the articles and respond.


lol! Muslim BMZ did not ask for that. Muslim BMZ just asked you to write, detail, show and prove the alleged apocrypha, which, according to you, can be found in Qur'aan and list it up for discussion.
I don't see you doing that.

The entire Christian scripture itself is full of apocrypha and in fact has been picked up from apocrypha. So, don't quote from answering-Islam.org.uk crap.

Write in your own words like I do. I do not quote from any answering-Christianity sort of links. I quote all the nonsensical material direct from the NT.

There is nothing much about Christianity and it's scripture in Qur'aan. It mentions a little bit about Jesus and tells that Jesus is neither the son of God nor God. Qur'aan just says that he was just like any other slave of God.

I think I must take this opportunity to write a little about the child Jesus. The joke is on Christianity as it finds the man in almost every verse of the Jewish Holy Scriptures, that suits it's claims. Whereas in fact Jesus' name has not at all been mentioned in there. "To us a son is born," "Behold! The 'virgin' shall give birth to a child", the child who was supposed to be named Immanuel but was never named so, all becomes of no value and no substance.

The long-awaited one for whom the so-called magii pinpointed his location following a moving star  Laughing and Herod was alleged to have decided to kill all the babies, an idea borrowed and copied  from Pharoah's order, alleged to be a son called back from Egypt but all of no significance and no value and importance as the son of the Most High allegedly reported by Gabriel to Mary.

The miraculous birth and the miraculous child, the son of the Most High and all other prophecies were ridiculous and the Most High did not care and had left his son for thirty years and only acknowledged him when John the Baptist bathed him to clean him up.

All this is really derogatory to Jesus. Qur'aan gives importance to the child Jesus and tells us he spoke as an infant. If God could make the donkey of Balam speak, why could not God make Jesus speak?

The best joke, "Jesus was found by his parents at the Temple arguing the Torah with the priests" comes from the Apocrypha itself. Please read the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. lol!

You may go back to the topic and start writing there. I won't be writing here any further.
lol
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Holy crap man

can't you just list it using your own bloody words instead of parroting urls from anti Islam web sites?

you sound like a real confused freak to be honest


Hello, mate

I really enjoy when someone posts own thoughts instead of providing links. answering-islam is itself junk and stuff.

I have suggested David goes back to the topic. What surprises me is that these folks do not extend any respect to Jesus and do not acknowledge the first thirty years of his life as if he did nothing.  Rolling Eyes It sounds as if he was totally unknown for thirty years.

Salaams
BMZ
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is Fathoms comment on the relation between fx the Arabic Infancy Gospel,  and the Quran from this thread 19:36

Fathom wrote:
David wrote:
BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
Jesus speaking in the cradle is a weird story.  I know where it comes from.  The clay birds that fly is another weird one and I know where that one comes from too.  Apparently these stories were flying around Mecca during the period of Muhammad and he thought they were true and used them as if they were.


Almost all the stories, in the New Testament, are weird anyway. How weirder can it get if he made birds out of clay and spoke when he was an infant?  


The fact is it isn't true.  These thoughts came out of the imagination of the writer.  If they had been true, they would have been noted in the New Testament.

BMZ wrote:


He could perform miracles. Right? There was no prophecy that the child born to the virgin would perform miracles only when he was thirty.  


The fact is the stories are not true.  If Jesus had performed miracles as a child they would have been for a purpose.  Performing miracles as a child served no purpose.

BMZ wrote:


If God could make Balaam's donkey speak, why could not God make Jesus speak as an infant to clear his mother's name and lecture people to let them know who he was?  

BMZ


God can do anything, but Jesus did not perform miracles as a child.  God made sure Jesus had a normal childhood.  His miracles started when he began his ministry at the age of 30.

I see your problem though.  The Quran includes these fanciful stories and you need some way to justify them.


Actually, Muhammad got his information regarding the clay birds from the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew which had been translated into early Arabic just a few years before Muhammad began his religion.

This particular gospel was written at least 300 years before the time of Muhammad, and then was translated into the Arabic Infancy Gospel just before Muhammad began his religion.

In the Arabic Infancy Gospel we read the following regarding Jesus from chapter 36:


Quote:
And He had made figures of birds and sparrows, which flew when He told them to fly, and stood still when He told them to stand, and ate and drank when He handed them food and drink. After the boys had gone away and told this to their parents, their fathers said to them: My sons, take care not to keep company with him again, for he is a wizard: flee from him, therefore, and avoid him, and do not play with him again after this.


The above came from the earlier Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew which says in in chapter 27 regarding Jesus:

Quote:
And it came to pass, after these things, that in the sight of all Jesus took clay froth the pools which He had made, and of it made twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when Jesus did this, and there were very many children with Him.

When, therefore, one of the Jews had seen Him doing this, he said to Joseph: Joseph, dost thou not see the child Jesus working on the Sabbath at what it is not lawful for him to do? for he has made twelve sparrows of clay. And when Joseph heard this, he reproved him, saying: Wherefore doest thou on the Sabbath such things as are not lawful for us to do? And when Jesus heard Joseph, He struck His hands together, and said to His sparrows: Fly! And at the voice of His command they began to fly.


Upon reading either of these early Christian works we can also see where Muhammad got much of his information. Since we know that Catholicism was the ruling Christian sect at the time of Muhammad, and all other Christian sects were persecuted by the Catholics, we also know that the biblical gospels were not available to just anyone but almost exclusively only to Christian clergy. The biblical gospels were written in Latin at the time of Muhammad, and stayed that way until the 15th century, with only Christian priests having the authority and knowledge to read from them.

As a result of this exclusion, many pseudo gospels were written and were spread around the land, including the two aforementioned gospels. The narrative of the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew is prefaced by a series of letters between the early Church father Jerome and the Bishops Comatius and Heliodorus. In these letters the Bishops request that Jerome translate a "Hebrew volume, written by the hand of the most blessed Evangelist Matthew," concerning the birth of the virgin mother and the infancy of Jesus.

If you noticed, I underlined the words "Hebrew volume" to illustrate a very important forthcoming point. Listed below are two Hadiths regarding Muhammad and his uncle:


Quote:
Narrated 'Aisha: Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605: Sahih Al-Bukhari

The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic


As you can see above, Waraqa bin Naufal used to read the Gospel in Arabic. How did he get a gospel in Arabic? That is answered in another Hadith:

Quote:
Narrated 'Aisha: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3: Sahih Al-Bukhari

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.


The only gospels that would have been available to Waraqa would have been those which had not been included into the biblical canon, and none of the biblical gospels existed in Hebrew at the time of Muhammad.

The only known Hebrew Gospel from that time period is indeed the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, and as you can see, Waraqa was translating this Hebrew gospel into Arabic. This translated Gospel is most likely the Arabic Infancy Gospel, and Waraqa is the most likely author.

So here we have Muhammad's uncle writing from the Hebrew gospel and translating it into Arabic, and within the Quran we see the very evidence of this gospel.

This is not a matter of disputing the origins of the Quran but instead it is documented history from both Christian and Islamic sources, and we cannot change history.

Welcome to the truth.

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David
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Holy crap man

can't you just list it using your own bloody words instead of parroting urls  from anti Islam web sites?

you sound like a real confused freak to be honest


You need to read the whole analysis.  Why should I present it when someone else has done it for me?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:09 am    Post subject: Re: Apocryphal gospels in the Quran Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
Muslim BMZ asked for a list of the apocryphas gospels incorporated into the Quran.  I found a document which does just that:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Arlandson/apocryphal.htm

In addition there is another article, which spells out other non-Biblical sources used by Muhammad while compiling the Quran.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Tisdall/Sources0/index.htm

Any Muslim who is really interested can read the articles and respond.


lol! Muslim BMZ did not ask for that. Muslim BMZ just asked you to write, detail, show and prove the alleged apocrypha, which, according to you, can be found in Qur'aan and list it up for discussion.
I don't see you doing that.

The entire Christian scripture itself is full of apocrypha and in fact has been picked up from apocrypha. So, don't quote from answering-Islam.org.uk crap.

Write in your own words like I do. I do not quote from any answering-Christianity sort of links. I quote all the nonsensical material direct from the NT.

There is nothing much about Christianity and it's scripture in Qur'aan. It mentions a little bit about Jesus and tells that Jesus is neither the son of God nor God. Qur'aan just says that he was just like any other slave of God.

I think I must take this opportunity to write a little about the child Jesus. The joke is on Christianity as it finds the man in almost every verse of the Jewish Holy Scriptures, that suits it's claims. Whereas in fact Jesus' name has not at all been mentioned in there. "To us a son is born," "Behold! The 'virgin' shall give birth to a child", the child who was supposed to be named Immanuel but was never named so, all becomes of no value and no substance.

The long-awaited one for whom the so-called magii pinpointed his location following a moving star  Laughing and Herod was alleged to have decided to kill all the babies, an idea borrowed and copied  from Pharoah's order, alleged to be a son called back from Egypt but all of no significance and no value and importance as the son of the Most High allegedly reported by Gabriel to Mary.

The miraculous birth and the miraculous child, the son of the Most High and all other prophecies were ridiculous and the Most High did not care and had left his son for thirty years and only acknowledged him when John the Baptist bathed him to clean him up.

All this is really derogatory to Jesus. Qur'aan gives importance to the child Jesus and tells us he spoke as an infant. If God could make the donkey of Balam speak, why could not God make Jesus speak?

The best joke, "Jesus was found by his parents at the Temple arguing the Torah with the priests" comes from the Apocrypha itself. Please read the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. lol!

You may go back to the topic and start writing there. I won't be writing here any further.
lol


That's a royal copout and please stick to the subject.

I can understand why you refuse to rebut.  The answer is obvious.  You cannot.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
This is Fathoms comment on the relation between fx the Arabic Infancy Gospel,  and the Quran from this thread 19:36

Fathom wrote:
David wrote:
BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
Jesus speaking in the cradle is a weird story.  I know where it comes from.  The clay birds that fly is another weird one and I know where that one comes from too.  Apparently these stories were flying around Mecca during the period of Muhammad and he thought they were true and used them as if they were.


Almost all the stories, in the New Testament, are weird anyway. How weirder can it get if he made birds out of clay and spoke when he was an infant?  


The fact is it isn't true.  These thoughts came out of the imagination of the writer.  If they had been true, they would have been noted in the New Testament.

BMZ wrote:


He could perform miracles. Right? There was no prophecy that the child born to the virgin would perform miracles only when he was thirty.  


The fact is the stories are not true.  If Jesus had performed miracles as a child they would have been for a purpose.  Performing miracles as a child served no purpose.

BMZ wrote:


If God could make Balaam's donkey speak, why could not God make Jesus speak as an infant to clear his mother's name and lecture people to let them know who he was?  

BMZ


God can do anything, but Jesus did not perform miracles as a child.  God made sure Jesus had a normal childhood.  His miracles started when he began his ministry at the age of 30.

I see your problem though.  The Quran includes these fanciful stories and you need some way to justify them.


Actually, Muhammad got his information regarding the clay birds from the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew which had been translated into early Arabic just a few years before Muhammad began his religion.

This particular gospel was written at least 300 years before the time of Muhammad, and then was translated into the Arabic Infancy Gospel just before Muhammad began his religion.

In the Arabic Infancy Gospel we read the following regarding Jesus from chapter 36:


Quote:
And He had made figures of birds and sparrows, which flew when He told them to fly, and stood still when He told them to stand, and ate and drank when He handed them food and drink. After the boys had gone away and told this to their parents, their fathers said to them: My sons, take care not to keep company with him again, for he is a wizard: flee from him, therefore, and avoid him, and do not play with him again after this.


The above came from the earlier Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew which says in in chapter 27 regarding Jesus:

Quote:
And it came to pass, after these things, that in the sight of all Jesus took clay froth the pools which He had made, and of it made twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when Jesus did this, and there were very many children with Him.

When, therefore, one of the Jews had seen Him doing this, he said to Joseph: Joseph, dost thou not see the child Jesus working on the Sabbath at what it is not lawful for him to do? for he has made twelve sparrows of clay. And when Joseph heard this, he reproved him, saying: Wherefore doest thou on the Sabbath such things as are not lawful for us to do? And when Jesus heard Joseph, He struck His hands together, and said to His sparrows: Fly! And at the voice of His command they began to fly.


Upon reading either of these early Christian works we can also see where Muhammad got much of his information. Since we know that Catholicism was the ruling Christian sect at the time of Muhammad, and all other Christian sects were persecuted by the Catholics, we also know that the biblical gospels were not available to just anyone but almost exclusively only to Christian clergy. The biblical gospels were written in Latin at the time of Muhammad, and stayed that way until the 15th century, with only Christian priests having the authority and knowledge to read from them.

As a result of this exclusion, many pseudo gospels were written and were spread around the land, including the two aforementioned gospels. The narrative of the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew is prefaced by a series of letters between the early Church father Jerome and the Bishops Comatius and Heliodorus. In these letters the Bishops request that Jerome translate a "Hebrew volume, written by the hand of the most blessed Evangelist Matthew," concerning the birth of the virgin mother and the infancy of Jesus.

If you noticed, I underlined the words "Hebrew volume" to illustrate a very important forthcoming point. Listed below are two Hadiths regarding Muhammad and his uncle:


Quote:
Narrated 'Aisha: Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605: Sahih Al-Bukhari

The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic


As you can see above, Waraqa bin Naufal used to read the Gospel in Arabic. How did he get a gospel in Arabic? That is answered in another Hadith:

Quote:
Narrated 'Aisha: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3: Sahih Al-Bukhari

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.


The only gospels that would have been available to Waraqa would have been those which had not been included into the biblical canon, and none of the biblical gospels existed in Hebrew at the time of Muhammad.

The only known Hebrew Gospel from that time period is indeed the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, and as you can see, Waraqa was translating this Hebrew gospel into Arabic. This translated Gospel is most likely the Arabic Infancy Gospel, and Waraqa is the most likely author.

So here we have Muhammad's uncle writing from the Hebrew gospel and translating it into Arabic, and within the Quran we see the very evidence of this gospel.

This is not a matter of disputing the origins of the Quran but instead it is documented history from both Christian and Islamic sources, and we cannot change history.

Welcome to the truth.


Thanks for copying this post.  The Muslims can reply to Fathom and then we will move on to another one.

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