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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:25 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
I was surprised to see Harun Hahya embracing the code 19 crap, what a shocker, I used to respect the guy, that respect just went down the drain on the fly, see in this page:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html


that is total crap, let me see if any of the arabic talking kafirs can spot the mitsakes especially when the article counts the words in the suras, the mitakes are clear for a child, any taker from the kafirs to expose it?




Salams Ahmad, I used to be a fan of Harun Yahya too - a long time ago - but he lost my respect with his obsession with scientific miracles in the Qur'an and yet he seems oblivious to the rest of the Qur'an - as if these miracles make things like hitting women and torturing people in Hell for eternity - somehow acceptable (even if they were true).

I had a brief look at the page and can see that amongst the first verses revealed he counted 19 words yet some words he counted as ONE are combination of words i.e Bismi  and Rabbuka (noun Lord + pronoun Your) while at other times he is content to count other  prepositions and pronouns i.e Min or Al-lathee on their own. That struck me as arbitrary straight away - didn't read any more.

ps - there is no need to keep referring to non-Muslims as Kafirs - when you know it is a term that has derogatory overtones.

Hassan Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Tvebak"]
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I was surprised to see Harun Hahya embracing the code 19 crap, what a shocker, I used to respect the guy, that respect just went down the drain on the fly, see in this page:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html


that is total crap, let me see if any of the arabic talking kafirs can spot the mitsakes especially when the article counts the words in the suras, the mitakes are clear for a child, any taker from the kafirs to expose it?


Tvebak wrote:

Hello Ahmed


Hello

Tvebak wrote:

Welcome back. Did you have good trip? Feel free to respond in the other thread, concerning Moses and the fire if you like.


If I have time later on

Tvebak wrote:

Is "and" not a word in arabic?


Of course "Wa" is a word that is one harf

also all the damirs attached to any word, is a word, i.e. their count is flawed

an example is "Rabuka",  Rab is a word and Ka is another word

Tvebak wrote:

Peace mate and again welcome back


Thanks
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn I used the wrong window and all the things I wrote got deleted  Very Happy

Maybe that's better,because the argument was going nowhere.

I was searching for this link.

http://www.islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm

That's what error is,the ones in Quran are nothing but wrong translations(such as using the same word for 2 different words or selecting wrong words)

Other than this,i will summarize what i had written again about meaningful points.

2)I followed your argument with Garabsare.You didn't seem honest to urself.
Also you saw the quote from Cousteau,but your only option was calling it lie.


3)Please check out what was found related to Noah again.Sure there were many floods,and it is the way of your "running away",as i said.Always there is a way that will "block" you.


6)Buy the book from somewhere else if you can't use that site.

9)For example,watch 19th chapter of my videos.


And about parrot,u chose your animal and I chose mine Wink

I still think you are a first class affrighted ass,fleeing from a lion.
No,not because Quran said,it really describes you,if parrot describes me.

Now I want to quote a short part of one of those books I said in "1" about Quran.
You are free to read it,if you want,but i dunno,literature may bore you.



What makes Quran so different?

This is the eloquence of the Quran, which is at the degree of miraculousness. Its eloquence is a wonderful eloquence born of the beauty of its word order,
the perfection of its conciseness, the marvels of its style, its singularity and pleasantness, the excellence of its expression, its superiority and clarity,
the power and truth of its meanings, and from the purity and fluency of its language, which for one thousand three hundred years has challenged the most
brilliant men of letters of mankind, their most celebrated orators, and the most profoundly learned of them, and invited them to dispute it. It has provoked
them intensely. And although it has invited them to dispute it, those geniuses, whose heads touch the skies in their pride and conceit, have been unable to
so much as open their mouths to do so, and have bowed their heads utterly put down. Thus, we shall point to the miraculousness in its eloquence.

It possesses miraculousness and its miraculousness exists for the following reasons. The great majority of the people of the Arabian Peninsula at that time
were illiterate. Due to this, in place of in writing, they preserved the sources of their pride, historical events, and stories which assisted good morality,
by means of poetry and eloquence. Through the at- traction of poetry and eloquence, meaningful sayings would remain in people's memories
and be passed down the generations. And so, in consequence of this innate need, the goods most in demand in the immaterial market of that people was
eloquence. An eloquent literary figure of a tribe, even, was like its greatest national hero. It was through him that they gained their greatest pride.
Thus, that intelligent people who ruled the world through their intelligence after the establishment of Islam were, among the peoples of the world,
at the highest and most advanced degree of eloquence. It was the thing most in demand among them, was their cause of pride, and the thing for which they
had greatest need. Eloquence had such high value that two tribes would do battle at the word of a literary figure, and they would make peace at his word.
They even wrote in gold on the walls of the Ka'ba the seven qasidas of seven poets called the Muallaqat-i Sebta, and took great pride in them.
Thus, it was at such a time when eloquence was the thing most sought after that the Qurtan was revealed. Just as at the time of Moses (Peace be upon him)
it was magic that was most sought after and at the time of Jesus (Peace be upon him), it was medicine. The most important of their miracles were in those fields.

And so, the Qur'an invited the Arabian orators of that time to reply to even one of the shortest of the Suras. It challenged them with the decree of:

And if you are in doubt about what We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a Sura resembling it. (Quran 23,24)

And it also said: "If you do not believe, you shall be damned and shall go to Hell." It provoked them intensely. It smashed their pride in a fearsome manner.
It was contemptuous of their arrogant minds. It condemned them firstly to eternal extinction and then to eternal extinction in Hell, as well as to worldly
extinction. It said: "Either dispute me, or you and your property shall perish."

Thus, if it had been possible to dispute it, is it at all possible that, while there was an easy solution like disputing the Qur'an with one or two lines and
nullifying the claim, they should have chosen the most dangerous and most difficult, the way of war? Yes, is it at al1 possible that that clever people,
that politically-minded nation, who at one time were to govern the world through politics, should have abandoned the shortest, easiest, and most light way,
and chosen the most dangerous, which was going to cast their lives and ail their property into peril? For if their literary figures had been able to dispute it with a few words, the Qurtan would have given up its claim, and they would have been saved from material and moral disaster. Whereas they chose a fearsome and long road like war That means it was not possible to dispute in by word; it was impossible. Therefore they were compelled to fight it with the sword.

Furthermore, there are two most compelling reasons for the Qur'an being imitated. The first is its enemies' ambition to dispute it, the other,
its friends' pleasure at imitating it. Through these two impelling causes, millions of books in Arabic have been written, but not one of them resembles
the Qur'an. Whether learned or ignorant, whoever looks at it and at them most certainly says: "The Qur'an does not resemble these. Not one of them
has been able to imitate it." Therefore, the Qur'an is either inferior to all of them, and according to the consensus of friend and foe alike, this is completely
non-valid and impossible, or the Qur'an is superior to all of them.

If you say: "How do you know that no one has tried to dispute it, and that no one has had sufficient confidence to challenge it, and that no one's help for
anyone else was of any avail?"

The Answer: If it had been possible to dispute it, most certainly it would have been attempted. For it was a question of honor and pride, and life
and property were at risk. And if it had been attempted, most certainly there would have been many to support such an attempt.
For those who obstinately oppose the truth have always been many. And if it had had many supporters, they surely would have found fame.
For insignificant contests, even, attract the wonder of people and find fame in stories and tales. So an extraordinary contest and event such as
that could not have remained secret. The most ugly and infamous things against Islam have been related and become famous. Whereas, apart from
one or two stories about Museylima the Liar, nothing has been related. Museylima was very eloquent, but when compared with the exposition of the
Qur'an, which possesses infinite beauty, his words passed in the chronicles as nonsense. Thus, the miraculousness of the Qur'an's eloquence exists
as certainly as twice two equals four; the matter is thus.


Best Regards

Peace

HFD&reg


http://www.ayetulkubra.com/rnkdiller/eng/english_word.htm

Read the 25th word,if you wonder.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw,i already found Hassan from your page,you favorized 1 of his vids,about Wafa sultan

peace
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="HFD"][color=indigo][font=Comic Sans MS]Damn I used the wrong window and all the things I wrote got deleted  Very Happy

Maybe that's better,because the argument was going nowhere.

Quote:
I was searching for this link.

http://www.islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm

That's what error is,the ones in Quran are nothing but wrong translations(such as using the same word for 2 different words or selecting wrong words)

Other than this,i will summarize what i had written again about meaningful points.


No the contradictions I argue there's is not about the translations. It's about clear conflicting information in the quran. Again people of every faith has these problems with their respective books. Some of them, the believers, admits it (in islam there's for instans Irshad Manji). Other believers go the length to make "explanation" to deal with these conflicting informations. Now also for the quran it's clear that it's not a clear book, which itself states.

Quote:
2)I followed your argument with Garabsare.You didn't seem honest to urself.
Also you saw the quote from Cousteau,but your only option was calling it lie.


About the barrier, he just dismissed my comment about there being constant transgress. I'll let him do his own math. My comment about Cousteau was that I'm sceptical about what is written in islamic 'miracle-sites' especially those which can't figure out making references. What I called a specific lie was that you wrote in your description of your video that Cousteau embraced islam. That is clear cut lie. Your answer was that "embrace" not necissarily means that he converted, which is a load of bs. I asked you to remove that part.

But please do your own observation on the different lines ("barriers"). There's plenty of reports and articles on that part of oceanology on the internet, a science which does also evovle  Wink .


Quote:
3)Please check out what was found related to Noah again.Sure there were many floods,and it is the way of your "running away",as i said.Always there is a way that will "block" you.


LOL I already downloaded the book. There's no evidence. What the book is doing is wasting my time repeating the story of Noah from the quran and then argues that there once was a specific flood in the Mesopotamian Plain, ie. he finds a flood that happened in ancient history and tries to make it fit the quranic agenda. Christians is doing the same, some of them thinks the bible is talking about a global flood others thinks it local. These different branches is also trying to find their flood and it's probably from them that Harun has his story. And they have plenty of them, floods, to argue from  Wink

Again the flood which did happen did probably create some myths, and these might have contributed to the idea of Noahs flood, ie. the epic of Gilgamesh, just to repeat what I've already said, but perhaps with more clarity.

Quote:
6)Buy the book from somewhere else if you can't use that site.


As said I might. No library has it here in Denmark as far as I can see, so that could be the only option. But again that he make an argument in book does not close the door. More fx achaelogical findings will either back the islamic tradition, ruin it, or neither.

Quote:
9)For example,watch 19th chapter of my videos.


Please make a comment here instead, with you own words.

Peace
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
I was surprised to see Harun Hahya embracing the code 19 crap, what a shocker, I used to respect the guy, that respect just went down the drain on the fly, see in this page:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html


that is total crap, let me see if any of the arabic talking kafirs can spot the mitsakes especially when the article counts the words in the suras, the mitakes are clear for a child, any taker from the kafirs to expose it?


Just went in the first Two tables.

The first Table:
It ignores the vowel "A" in "RahmAn".

The Second table:

The 19th word "Lam Yalam" is Two words not just One.
The Second word "Bism" is Two words, a preposition and a word.

I stopped reading after this.

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