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The Question of Intent
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DuckPhup



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:12 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
Hello DuckPhup.

An Atheist is someone who rejects god.
A Deist is someone who rejects the god story.



I've got no quibble with anything that you've said, except that bit.  Atheist is simply a negation of 'theist. Theist: believe in god... atheist (a-theist): NOT believe in god.

Let's rephrase that so that it reveals the 'understood' parts...

    1. I DO believe that gods DO exist


    2. I DO NOT believe that gods DO exist


    3. I DO believe that gods DO NOT exist.


#1 defines the 'theist' position.

#2 defines the 'atheist' position

#3 DOES NOT define the atheist position. It defines what is sometimes called the 'strong atheist' position. However... as a logical consequence of that position... by implication... #2 (the defining position for atheist) is ALSO true for the strong atheist position. So... it FALLS UNDER the atheist position... but (again) it does not DEFINE atheist.

#3 can and should be regarded as a SUBSET of 'atheist'.

So... we can say: ALL strong atheists are atheists... but NOT all atheists are strong atheists.

Comparatively speaking, there are actually very few 'strong atheists'... less than 20%, so far as we can tell... and most atheists think that the 'strong atheist' position is just as logically indefensible as the 'theist' position.

Interestingly, 'agnostics' ALSO 'fall under' the defining statement for 'atheist' for EXACTLY the same reason that the 'strong atheist' position does... as a logical consequence of that position... by implication... #2 (the defining position for atheist) is ALSO true for the 'agnostic' position.

So... all agnostics are atheists... but not all atheists are agnostics.
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Baal
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a matter of the difference between rejecting the God story and rejecting God altogether.

An atheist rejects God altogether as per #2
A Strong atheist even more as per #3

Either way, they are rejecting god. Weakly or Strongly. The atheist is past caring about the God story (mostly Religions & Structure).

It might make more sense to call the weaker atheist an agnostic maybe.

What I need to infer is, what do we call someone who does not believe God exists, but still willing to accept the God story (the Structure of Religion).


Also from a logical standpoint, I think #2 (atheist) is a much stronger position then #3 (Strong atheism). The Atheist is not making any positive statements, he is leaving the onus of proof on the Deists. The Strong Atheist, is actually jumping on the wagon of positive statements and now he also has to prove his position.
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noncredo



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:

What I need to infer is, what do we call someone who does not believe God exists, but still willing to accept the God story (the Structure of Religion).



I would call them confused, but maybe I donít understand the statement.

What do you mean by Ďaccepting the God storyí. To me, the God story is just that, the story of God, the Bible, if you will. If you donít believe in God I would think it would be difficult to accept the stories told about him as factual.

As for the religious structures, I really donít care if they stay or go; although I do agree if they go they would all have to go together. Leaving one would  leave the rest of the world vulnerable. (Thereís nothing better at combating zealotry than other zealots.) I see it kind of like a cancer. You can go in and remove the cancerous tissue, but if you leave just a little it will come back.

I also realize religion plays an important role in many peoples lives, a role beyond God and faith; community ties, social networking, self-identity, a way to connect with other people. These people arenít just going to let go of this support structure no matter how irrational I think their God is.

My stance is, keep you religions. I just want to minimize the impact they have on me. If you want to go to church, temple, mass, shrine, go, enjoy, sing, pray to God, Allah, Buddha, Thor, whoever. But donít make religious teaching mandatory, donít make religious beliefs compulsory and stop killing in the name ofÖ.( A little Rage Against the Machine reference.)

Of course, my little rant is nothing more than pie in the sky woowoo talk cause the fact is there are religions that want their teaching to be mandatory; people do kill in the name of [insert deity here], and it doesnít appear that reasonable rational discourse is going to break out on a global scale in my lifetime.
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DuckPhup



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
It is a matter of the difference between rejecting the God story and rejecting God altogether.

An atheist rejects God altogether as per #2
A Strong atheist even more as per #3

Either way, they are rejecting god. Weakly or Strongly. The atheist is past caring about the God story (mostly Religions & Structure).


Hmmm... there is a technical term for that... something like "... talking out your ass."

Look... I am an atheist. Every single day, I commune with atheists, and I have for many years. I know HOW I think, and I know WHAT I think. I also know how THEY think, and I know WHAT they think... because they have TOLD me.

This may come as something of a shock to you... but you do not get to tell US what we think, or HOW we think... WE get to tell YOU what we think, and how we think.

Deal with it.

If you wish to continue to embrace your misconception, rather than learn something... well... that is your prerogative.

If you are unable to discern the qualitative differences between rejecting god and rejecting the IDEA of god... and parsing the logical implications and consequences of those differences... well... that is your problem, not mine.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DuckPhup wrote:
Baal wrote:
It is a matter of the difference between rejecting the God story and rejecting God altogether.

An atheist rejects God altogether as per #2
A Strong atheist even more as per #3

Either way, they are rejecting god. Weakly or Strongly. The atheist is past caring about the God story (mostly Religions & Structure).


Hmmm... there is a technical term for that... something like "... talking out your ass."

Look... I am an atheist. Every single day, I commune with atheists, and I have for many years. I know HOW I think, and I know WHAT I think. I also know how THEY think, and I know WHAT they think... because they have TOLD me.

This may come as something of a shock to you... but you do not get to tell US what we think, or HOW we think... WE get to tell YOU what we think, and how we think.

Deal with it.

If you wish to continue to embrace your misconception, rather than learn something... well... that is your prerogative.

If you are unable to discern the qualitative differences between rejecting god and rejecting the IDEA of god... and parsing the logical implications and consequences of those differences... well... that is your problem, not mine.

Of course, I expect an apology for the talking out of your ass bit. Then we can proceed with the conversation.
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ixolite



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
It is a matter of the difference between rejecting the God story and rejecting God altogether.

No, it's not. To an atheist god(s) is (are) just a made up story. You don't believe in x stories, an atheist just doesn't believe in (x+1) stories.


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