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Justice Evaluation of whether God Exists w/o books

 
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brainout
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:17 am    Post subject: Justice Evaluation of whether God Exists w/o books  Reply with quote

Hi, All-Brains. You started a thread in FFI about Justice and I thought since that thread was nixed there, maybe you and I could continue it here.

I gotta tell ya, I'm really empathic with atheism. Seems to me a miracle anyone would ever believe in God. The issue seems so confusing, especially since as you say here, God seems "absent" and there is so much evil in the world. Seems like if God exists, then He'd be evil, too.

Many atheists visit my webpages, and one designed for them is http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/Godindex.html. To save forum space I listed only the link.

It's WRONG to prosyletize. The issue of if God is very difficult to analyze, and painful as well. Atop that, there are all these Christians, Jews, Moslems, B'hai whatever faiths competing with each other, all with their own holy books and ideas. It's mind-boggling.

So to me, the only quick way to analyze the question, is this: what must "Infinity" be, and what must "Freedom" be. From there, you can establish what "Justice" must be. Once "Justice" is established as a valid definition, then and only then can you discern if "God" and who "God", absent any holy book.

Some would call this a philosophical approach. I'd call it higher logic. Here's why. Pretend there is an Infinite, All-Powerful "God" of some kind with no beginning and no ending, the conventional idea of an Absolute Being. Then anything this "God" creates is less than Him, so immediately you have at least two justice problems (and many variations, within them):

1. Does this "God" make this creation as automatons? How would that be satisfying? Even we don't like robots.

2. Does this "God" make creation truly free? If so, then this creation will be offensive, free to reject this "God", and then how does this "God" get satisfaction for that -- and how is justice served for creation? Still, right there you have a plausible premise for God being 'absent' -- to prevent coercing creation's acceptance of Him. Kinda like not wanting to be loved by someone because you're good-looking or rich, you might hide those things so to prevent influencing someone.

That, and the first obvious premise, Absolute Infinity must be Invisible by nature. It's a reasonable starting premise, anyway.

Like you, I'm not satisfied with any of the religious answers to the above questions. I find all religion too stuck on itself, never really addressing the big questions.

So: since you already know how I'd answer the above, I'll stop here, hoping you and others will join in the topic and answer/thrash out the ideas, each in his own way.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Brainout

Welcome to the forum and many thanks for joining!

I know we will be disagreeing on many points, but rest assured that all will be respected and look at seriously.

I really look forward to our many discussions, but unfortunately for now I have to go and help my wife with the gardening!

I will be back in few hours.

All_Brains
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope we will disagree a lot. Smile Truth is nothing, if not full-spectrum, which means a whole lot of antithesis. Enjoy the gardening Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
I hope we will disagree a lot. Smile Truth is nothing, if not full-spectrum, which means a whole lot of antithesis. Enjoy the gardening Smile


I have responded to as much as I can today and I am really so tired from the gardening today.

I promise to respond tomorrow.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Brainout

Great post and great few questions to think about.

The areas that I find difficult to understand/agree with are:

1. God's satisfaction, is it a need or desire? Both cases reflect very human thinking though!

2. I would have agreed with the absent God theory if the punishment for those who reject him is the return of their original state, nothingness.
To torture for eternity is evil and should not be attributed to a loving God.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Hello Brainout

Great post and great few questions to think about.

The areas that I find difficult to understand/agree with are:

1. God's satisfaction, is it a need or desire? Both cases reflect very human thinking though!

2. I would have agreed with the absent God theory if the punishment for those who reject him is the return of their original state, nothingness.
To torture for eternity is evil and should not be attributed to a loving God.


LOL I find these difficult, too! That's why I started writing websites, I couldn't answer these questions like an accountant can balance a financial statement, which I think should be the standard. I started with the premise, "God elected Hell for Himself and everyone else." That's the only logical conclusion one can draw from Bible, imo. So then, WHY would He do this a) to Himself, and b) to whatever He creates? What could possibly WARRANT it? I mean, I don't get up in the morning and decide to torture myself and then everyone I meet. If it happens, it happens unintentionally. But if God is Omniscient, then it must be intentional.

Put simply, the only answer I could come up with is again -- the nature of Infinity. Good truth, bad truth, any truth, because Truth. Because if "Truth" is chosen by Omnipotence to be anything less than WHOLLY FREE, then it's shaved, and not truth but a sham.

That means living with the full, unvarnished, no-matter-how-heinous truth of whatever FREELY occurs. God would have to live with that FULLY, FOREVER -- we the creation would have it for only a limited time. But Godness has to be One Big Nowness, so yesterday is still 'occurring', to Omniscience, as is 'tomorrow'. So God above all is never absent the ALL AT ONCE HORROR always in His 'Face', so to speak.

There are only three conclusions to draw: 1) There is no God, this is nutso, 2) God is a sadist and a masochist, so is no God at all (variant of #1), or 3) God is SO Absolute Love for Truth and Freedom that He will not even shave horror. In which case, Justice makes good on it all. Isaiah 54:1 says just that (as did Isa52:13-14 through Isa53:12 and all of Isa55), so Bible's answer is #3.

Price of Freedom, essentially. Not a happy answer. You know the rest of what I'd say, about Christ paying for this cost (again, Isaiah 53's text beginning at 52:13), how anyone can get out of hell -- I presume you've read my other posts by now in FFI. If you want me to repeat any of that here, I will.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Hello Brainout

Great post and great few questions to think about.

The areas that I find difficult to understand/agree with are:

1. God's satisfaction, is it a need or desire? Both cases reflect very human thinking though!

2. I would have agreed with the absent God theory if the punishment for those who reject him is the return of their original state, nothingness.
To torture for eternity is evil and should not be attributed to a loving God.


LOL I find these difficult, too! That's why I started writing websites, I couldn't answer these questions like an accountant can balance a financial statement, which I think should be the standard. I started with the premise, "God elected Hell for Himself and everyone else." That's the only logical conclusion one can draw from Bible, imo. So then, WHY would He do this a) to Himself, and b) to whatever He creates? What could possibly WARRANT it? I mean, I don't get up in the morning and decide to torture myself and then everyone I meet. If it happens, it happens unintentionally. But if God is Omniscient, then it must be intentional.

Put simply, the only answer I could come up with is again -- the nature of Infinity. Good truth, bad truth, any truth, because Truth. Because if "Truth" is chosen by Omnipotence to be anything less than WHOLLY FREE, then it's shaved, and not truth but a sham.

That means living with the full, unvarnished, no-matter-how-heinous truth of whatever FREELY occurs. God would have to live with that FULLY, FOREVER -- we the creation would have it for only a limited time. But Godness has to be One Big Nowness, so yesterday is still 'occurring', to Omniscience, as is 'tomorrow'. So God above all is never absent the ALL AT ONCE HORROR always in His 'Face', so to speak.

There are only three conclusions to draw: 1) There is no God, this is nutso, 2) God is a sadist and a masochist, so is no God at all (variant of #1), or 3) God is SO Absolute Love for Truth and Freedom that He will not even shave horror. In which case, Justice makes good on it all. Isaiah 54:1 says just that (as did Isa52:13-14 through Isa53:12 and all of Isa55), so Bible's answer is #3.

Price of Freedom, essentially. Not a happy answer. You know the rest of what I'd say, about Christ paying for this cost (again, Isaiah 53's text beginning at 52:13), how anyone can get out of hell -- I presume you've read my other posts by now in FFI. If you want me to repeat any of that here, I will.


Again! I need tranquility to think about this one.

I think words like infinity and eternity hold some clue here....I may call upon my mathematical genius friends! Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Hello Brainout

Great post and great few questions to think about.

The areas that I find difficult to understand/agree with are:

1. God's satisfaction, is it a need or desire? Both cases reflect very human thinking though!

2. I would have agreed with the absent God theory if the punishment for those who reject him is the return of their original state, nothingness.
To torture for eternity is evil and should not be attributed to a loving God.


LOL I find these difficult, too! That's why I started writing websites, I couldn't answer these questions like an accountant can balance a financial statement, which I think should be the standard.


And there's your problem right there.


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