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3 questions that could get me out of islam
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ibnishaq
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:53 pm    Post subject: 3 questions that could get me out of islam  Reply with quote

hello you all i for the most part have been convinced that islam is nothing but made up religion but there are 3 issues in particular that i have questions about. some of them might sound really silly i am sorry about that. part of life is having inclinations to what may seem silly to others!

so here they are

1. numerical miracle? in the qu'ran if you look up the number of times month is said, it is 12. days in plural is 30. there are also some numerous repetitions like this world and hereafter.

do you think that is a miracle? if not could it be coincidence? or did someone put it in there? it would be complicated to put it in there!!

2. allah fish? this one is stupid but there have been some sightings of like wish with words "allah" and "muhammad" on it. is that miraculous or not?

3. his health - in general i just wonder why he had seizures and then came up with verses and such.

if these can be explained then maybe it will not be miraculous and maybe qu'ran is human written!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ibnishaq

Please stay tuned. I will be responding to you shortly.

Welcome to the forum!
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All_Brains
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first post as All_Brains. Set up is now complete and we're in business.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome Guys,

Hey Ishaq, for Question #2, considering the Bliions of fish, considering how the Arabic letters are so circular in a line, it would be a miracle if we find no fish with the allah and muhammad on them in nature.

Not to mention if you catch a bunch of small fish, and you use a Q-tip to write on them with sulphuric acid, then when the fish grows, it will have the writing on it. Kids used to play that game all the time in small lakes, writing on the fish: "No Eat Me" and "Put Me Back"

As for the other points, you know what i think and as for point #3, you know how broken and indefensible the evidence you brought forward is.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
Welcome Guys,

Hey Ishaq, for Question #2, considering the Bliions of fish, considering how the Arabic letters are so circular in a line, it would be a miracle if we find no fish with the allah and muhammad on them in nature.

Not to mention if you catch a bunch of small fish, and you use a Q-tip to write on them with sulphuric acid, then when the fish grows, it will have the writing on it. Kids used to play that game all the time in small lakes, writing on the fish: "No Eat Me" and "Put Me Back"


Hello Baal

Thanks for the support mate, I really appreciate it. We all could use the wealth of knowledge you add to any discussion.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 3 questions that could get me out of islam Reply with quote

Quote:
[quote="ibnishaq"]hello you all i for the most part have been convinced that islam is nothing but made up religion but there are 3 issues in particular that i have questions about. some of them might sound really silly i am sorry about that. part of life is having inclinations to what may seem silly to others!


Hello Ibnishaq

There is no such thing as a silly question, only silly answers!

Quote:
1. numerical miracle? in the qu'ran if you look up the number of times month is said, it is 12. days in plural is 30. there are also some numerous repetitions like this world and hereafter.


Absolutely rubbish claims for the following reasons:

1. According to the Georgian (solar) Calender not every month consists of 30 days!

2. According to the Hijri (lunar) Calender, which Muslims should follow, the month can also be 29 days. The hijri year is 11 days shorter than the solar year.

3. If the Qur'an is authored by humans over a period of time, of course they will try to add some clever bits and pieces to be discovered over time. A bit like some of Leonardo Da Vinci's work.

4. I find it very difficult to understand God's insistence to communicate in riddles, so he could only be perceived by those who are inherently and genetically with above average IQ!

Quote:
do you think that is a miracle? if not could it be coincidence? or did someone put it in there? it would be complicated to put it in there!!


No, not a miracle. Some were put there on purpose and some just happen to be there and interpreted differently by those who always believed that "the truth is out there".

Quote:
2. allah fish? this one is stupid but there have been some sightings of like wish with words "allah" and "muhammad" on it. is that miraculous or not?


I believe Baal addressed this one nicely, but to add to his comments: almost the same thing happens in all religions, sighting of the virgin Mary in Egypt, which ended up killing few people under the feet of the desperate crowds!! This is a play on emotional and simple people who need to see to believe even more.

And by the way, if you stare enough on the clouds, you'd see all sort of things....Allah, Jesus, Freddy Kruger and a Thanksgiving turkey!

Quote:

3. his health - in general i just wonder why he had seizures and then came up with verses and such.


This has been explained few times already. Muhammad could have been epileptic who later on faked his seizures to achieve a dramatic effect on his audience in terms of receiving the revelations.

Quote:

if these can be explained then maybe it will not be miraculous and maybe Qu'ran is human written!


There's absolutely nothing miraculous about the above, it's just a load of con-artistry and ignorance.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: 3 questions that could get me out of islam Reply with quote

[quote="All_Brains"]
Quote:
ibnishaq wrote:
hello you all i for the most part have been convinced that islam is nothing but made up religion but there are 3 issues in particular that i have questions about. some of them might sound really silly i am sorry about that. part of life is having inclinations to what may seem silly to others!


Hello Ibnishaq

There is no such thing as a silly question, only silly answers!

interesting!

Quote:
1. numerical miracle? in the qu'ran if you look up the number of times month is said, it is 12. days in plural is 30. there are also some numerous repetitions like this world and hereafter.

Quote:

Absolutely rubbish claims for the following reasons:

1. According to the Georgian (solar) Calender not every month consists of 30 days!

2. According to the Hijri (lunar) Calender, which Muslims should follow, the month can also be 29 days. The hijri year is 11 days shorter than the solar year.

good point but for 7 months of islamic year it is still 30 days.
and also month is used 12 times exactly.
Quote:

3. If the Qur'an is authored by humans over a period of time, of course they will try to add some clever bits and pieces to be discovered over time. A bit like some of Leonardo Da Vinci's work.

but it was not authored over a long period of time. if it was, please shwo proof or give me your insight!
Quote:

4. I find it very difficult to understand God's insistence to communicate in riddles, so he could only be perceived by those who are inherently and genetically with above average IQ!

that is true!
Quote:
do you think that is a miracle? if not could it be coincidence? or did someone put it in there? it would be complicated to put it in there!!

Quote:

No, not a miracle. Some were put there on purpose and some just happen to be there and interpreted differently by those who always believed that "the truth is out there".

humm, possibly true; but why would a PERSON render it and not tell anyone?

Quote:
2. allah fish? this one is stupid but there have been some sightings of like wish with words "allah" and "muhammad" on it. is that miraculous or not?

Quote:

I believe Baal addressed this one nicely, but to add to his comments: almost the same thing happens in all religions, sighting of the virgin Mary in Egypt, which ended up killing few people under the feet of the desperate crowds!! This is a play on emotional and simple people who need to see to believe even more.

And by the way, if you stare enough on the clouds, you'd see all sort of things....Allah, Jesus, Freddy Kruger and a Thanksgiving turkey!

well yea but there was fish in UK that had allah on one side and muhammad on another. even the store owners that it was a miralce, search up walker aquatics and you will see!
Quote:

3. his health - in general i just wonder why he had seizures and then came up with verses and such.

Quote:

This has been explained few times already. Muhammad could have been epileptic who later on faked his seizures to achieve a dramatic effect on his audience in terms of receiving the revelations.

yeah that is true but why would he make it up if at first he really thought it was from god?
Quote:

if these can be explained then maybe it will not be miraculous and maybe Qu'ran is human written!

Quote:

There's absolutely nothing miraculous about the above, it's just a load of con-artistry and ignorance.

humm, you might be right! i am still debating Idea
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: 3 questions that could get me out of islam Reply with quote

Quote:
good point but for 7 months of islamic year it is still 30 days.
and also month is used 12 times exactly.


Then the miracle is invalid! Since the month being not always 30 days, the mentioning of the word "month" 30 times in the Quran is immaterial!

As for the year, I don't see any miracles here! The year was 12 months since my great grand parents "The Ancient Egyptians". The Author of the Quran merely did this on purpose and may be later pointed this out to wow the simple-minded people. The ancients were very big on words and numbers. The trick of numbers and play on words is way older than the Quran and was practiced in other cultures and societies too!

Quote:

but it was not authored over a long period of time. if it was, please shwo proof or give me your insight!


Yes, it did take long time for one book. We all know that the revelations took 23 years to be completed. That's work in progress for Muhammad and his mates to think everything through before the final release of the Surahs. Also, the Quran was not collected in one volume until the year 650, some 18 years after the death of Muhammad who died in the year 632. So all together we have 23+18= 41 years for one book to reach us in its current form. I think there's plenty of time for the authoring committee to come up with all sort of riddles, silly play on numbers and dark ages science!

Quote:

humm, possibly true; but why would a PERSON render it and not tell anyone?


Why? Religion and specially Islam is one of the most powerful tools for some people to use to rule over the masses. The fear of God, the punishment in hell, the Shariah laws and the Jizya. Religion is power!

To Muslims at that time it meant power, war booty, captured women and land. So the answer is (Greed).

[quote]well yea but there was fish in UK that had allah on one side and muhammad on another. even the store owners that it was a miralce, search up walker aquatics and you will see!
[quote]

Are you kidding me Ibnshaq! Here's the picture of that fish.



This can be anything! Christians too find baby Jesus face and the virgin Mary in South America quite a lot! This is ignorance.

Quote:

yeah that is true but why would he make it up if at first he really thought it was from god?


Muhammad did not know what the hell it was happening to him. His wife Khadijah and her cousin the blind priest, Warqa Ibn Nawfal convinced him that he was a prophet and he was seeing Gabriel. It's quite possible that Muhammad later on knew deep down that this was not the case, however liked the prospect of being the last prophet with access to booty, women and land.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but does that not look like muhammad in arabic?



Muhammad is made out of 4 Arabic letters as follows:

Mim
Haa (throaty)
Mim
Dal

Now I accept that the fish carries some resemblance to the first two letters above, but for the second "Mim", the circle should be below the line and not above it as in the picture and the "dal" is nothing like how it should be written. Here is Muhammad in Arabic for you. Judge for yourself!


محمد

Quote:
Quote:

humm that could be true i suppose. but how did he know the verses right after he had seizures?



As I said before, the verses were prepared earlier. The seizures could have been introduced to show the simple Bedouins that God was actually communicating with him.

And to be honest with you, if mouth foaming, spitting, sweating, going red and blue are signs of God communicating with human, then it's really fishy! You'd think if God decided to communicate with you and you know that, you'd have nothing but tranquility and inner-peace!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

humm i made a response but i guess i did not click submit earlier. i thought i did!

anyways but i did have one question

you mentioned that in the culture people tried to make miracle number tricks. was that prominent during muhammad's time? do you have and proof?

if it was then it is no miracle as that was social norm

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