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I challenge Ahmed Bahgat the wonderful Islamic scholar
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Mutley
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:06 am    Post subject: I challenge Ahmed Bahgat the wonderful Islamic scholar  Reply with quote

This is a respectable, high brow, honorable challenge to the respected Islamic scholar, Ahmed Bahgat who also happens to be in the process of rewriting the Quran, and developing an English translation of it that meets his needs

We shall debate about the inheritance rules. We will stick strictly to the Quran, as said respected scholar, mentioned above, always demands.

The challenge is to add up the scenario of the following, and nothing more than the following, of two daughters, two parents and one wife. That's it. Other than the general public, there are no other inheritors. To do this, one must use Quran 4:11, 4:12, and 4:176, as I believe this is a fair offer and the only Quran verses that deal with this issue. Ahmed Bahgat is allowed to refute everything I say for as many times as he wants and as long as he wants (and of course, I'm allowed to answer back)

Fair challenge? How could it not be any more fair?
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Last edited by Mutley on Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:49 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok punk, I reversed your dismissal status for a while

put an example here and explain your position without any bloody copy/paste work by others and without being rude, if you are rude to the God or the prophet in the discussion you be back to the dismissal room with no possible parol
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also punk

the title of the thread MUST be changed for me to continue

you should know what to change it for and I will give one chance only to do so, if you mock around you should know what the outcome will be

you can keep the graphic above, howver
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Mutley
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, that's fine, we'll do this on your terms in your house. I'll change it right now, and get rid of the bag head graphic even though I love it. Thanks for the unnecessary stall tactics, but that's OK, I'm patient. It's not going to change anything in the long run. I have altered the words of my intiial challenge in my first post above. There you will find the respect you demand, and the details you need.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mutley wrote:
This is a respectable, high brow, honorable challenge to the respected Islamic scholar, Ahmed Bahgat who also happens to be in the process of rewriting the Quran, and developing an English translation of it that meets his needs


Mute

What a  load of crap you just spewed above, Iím NOT re-writing the Quran you fool, Iím only translating it, look what you said Mute: Ahmed Bahgat who also happens to be in the process of rewriting the Quran, and developing an English translation of it that meets his needs

That sounds like two tasks to me, while Iím doing only one, so stop being shifty and manipulative or I will dismiss ya in the rubbish bin as you know very well.

Also, I donít translate the Quran to suit my needs you  freak, Iím only doing it because there is NON that is accurate and I want to help those non Arabic speakers, so STFU and only concentrate on the 1 on 1 debate and stop acting like a filthy whore.

Mutley wrote:
We shall debate about the inheritance rules. We will stick strictly to the Quran, as said respected scholar, mentioned above, always demands.


Scholarship has nothing to do with it, we are only looking at the Quran words, however I agree that the task is taunting to you, you didnít study Arabic nor you speak it, right?

Mutley wrote:
The challenge is to add up the scenario of the following, and nothing more than the following, of two daughters, two parents and one wife.


Ok

Mutley wrote:
That's it. Other than the general public, there are no other inheritors. To do this, one must use Quran 4:11, 4:12, and 4:176,


Wrong,

4:176 is only talking about the Kalalah, i.e. those who died and left no parents nor any children, only brothers and sisters left, but the example given by you clearly includes children (two daughters) and the parents, here is what you said you fool: the following, of two daughters, two parents and one wife.

That should say it all, that you donít know what the hell you are talking about.

Mutley wrote:
as I believe this is a fair offer and the only Quran verses that deal with this issue.


Ignorant, 4:176 has nothing to do with your example, here is why again:

4:176 is only talking about the Kalalah, i.e. those who died and left no parents nor any children, only brothers and sisters left, but the example given by you clearly includes children (two daughters) and parents.

Mutley wrote:
Ahmed Bahgat is allowed to refute everything I say for as many times as he wants and as long as he wants (and of course, I'm allowed to answer back)


What a loser

I do have a life mister Mute

Here is how the game will be played by us:

1) You raise the argument
2) I refute once
3) You reply once
4) I reply once

And by that, he Game should be Over, and left to the judges from the public

Mutley wrote:
Fair challenge?


Here is what is not fair, if you attack me or mock me as you did in your intro, by saying manipulated lies about me like your crap that Iím re-writing the Quran and translating it to suit my needs, I will mock you harder and will have absolute right to terminate the discussion at any point onwards, however because you didnít know that, Iím not going to do it in this thread, but you should know that if you continue doing so in this thread, I will reply with an iron hand then dismiss ya.

Mutley wrote:
How could it not be any more fair?


To only concentrate on the argument in hand, personal defamation wonít be tolerated, however if you catch me saying something dumb that is based on ignorance in relation to the argument in hand then it is ok to call me dumb, stupid, etc etc, as I did with you above (4:176), that was so dumb by you, do you know what Kalalah means?

Let me now reply to your puzzle:

We have a man who died and left the following:

1) Two daughters
2) Two Parents
3) One wife

Let me bring the three verses you mentioned, I know that 4:176 does not apply as I stated,  however I have to bring it because Iím going to use it regarding  my VOCABULARY and GRAMMAR refute that Iím sure you never heard of it before, this is because most Muslims got 4:11 wrong, let me explain further, (the translation provided is Free-Islam proposed translation which is in the making:

11: Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have a portion of the two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have one-third of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the one-sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and  his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the one-third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the one-sixth after  a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is all-Knowing, all-Wise.

12: And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a one-fourth of what they leave after any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the one-fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the one-eighth of what you leave after a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the one-sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the one-third after  any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm; this is an ordinance from Allah: and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

[The Quran ; 4:11-12]

يُوصِيكُمُ اللّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ فَإِن كُنَّ نِسَاء فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانَتْ وَاحِدَةً فَلَهَا النِّصْفُ وَلأَبَوَيْهِ لِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ مِمَّا تَرَكَ إِن كَانَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ فَلأُمِّهِ الثُّلُثُ فَإِن كَانَ لَهُ إِخْوَةٌ فَلأُمِّهِ السُّدُسُ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصِي بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ آبَآؤُكُمْ وَأَبناؤُكُمْ لاَ تَدْرُونَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ لَكُمْ نَفْعاً فَرِيضَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيما حَكِيمًا (11)

وَلَكُمْ نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ أَزْوَاجُكُمْ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُنَّ وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَ لَهُنَّ وَلَدٌ فَلَكُمُ الرُّبُعُ مِمَّا تَرَكْنَ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصِينَ بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ وَلَهُنَّ الرُّبُعُ مِمَّا تَرَكْتُمْ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّكُمْ وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَ لَكُمْ وَلَدٌ فَلَهُنَّ الثُّمُنُ مِمَّا تَرَكْتُم مِّن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ تُوصُونَ بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلاَلَةً أَو امْرَأَةٌ وَلَهُ أَخٌ أَوْ أُخْتٌ فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ فَإِن كَانُوَاْ أَكْثَرَ مِن ذَلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاء فِي الثُّلُثِ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصَى بِهَآ أَوْ دَيْنٍ غَيْرَ مُضَآرٍّ وَصِيَّةً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَلِيمٌ (12)

-> Many Muslims if not all understood 4:11 wrong, this is because they took the Arabic word Thultha ثُلُثَا to mean 2 x one-third, i.e. dual form of Thulth ثُلُثَ , they thought that the Alif (highlighted in red and underlined) that is added at the end of the singular word Thulth caused it to be dual, the problem here that if they want it DUAL then it should be: Thulthan  ثُّلُثَانِ  ,  

This is going to be very deep explanation and is not for the faint hearted who lack solid Arabic grammar, but let me at least try to clear your and their ignorance:

Firstly, let me explain this:

Any Arabic noun must end with any of the following vowels DEPENDING ON something called Irab, I donít know how to translate Irab however I can explain it, it is to identify the grammatical position of each word within the sentence to find out which vowel should be used at the end of the word.

The most common and widely used vowels in Arabic are as follow:

1) Dummah (oooooo)
2) Fatiha (aaaaaa)
3) Kasira (eeeeee)
4) Sikoon  (nothing) Ė therefore I will ignore this one

In many cases we canít use the above vowels, a case is the dual word which must end with AN or AYN, for example Madrastan, or Madrasatayn, both words means two schools, this is how they look in Arabic مدرستان, مدرستين

Let me explain how the dual of the word Thulth ثُلُثَ which means one-third should be and its position in Irab as it appeared in 4:11,

The dual form of it must end with AN, i.e. Thulthan  ثُّلُثَانِ   which means two-thirds, you can see the word clearly used as such in 4:176

Now we have two possible words (singualr and dual) that we may need to apply the above vowels to them:

1) The first word : Thulth ثُلُثَ which means one-third

We have two possibilities:

A) The word includes the Al,  Al Thulth الثُّلُثُ which means the one-third
B) The word does not include the Al Thulth ثُلُثَ which means one-third

In the first case (A) the vowel marks (the Dummah, Fatiha or Kasirah), are just added to the last letter (no letters added to the main word), the word letters MUST stay the same, and just apply the possible vowels with the mouth and not in writing, so it will be pronounced as follow:

i) Al Thultha الثُّلُثَ , as you can see the word letters stayed the same and only a Fatiha is added to the last letter (the Fatiha is the small dash above the last letter

ii) Al Thultho الثُّلُثُ , as you can see the word letters stayed the same and only a Dummah is added to the last letter, The dummah is the small waw above the last letter

iii) Al Thulthe الثُّلُثِ , as you can see the word letters stayed the same and only a Kasirah is added to the last letter, the kasirah is the small dash under the last letter

In the second case (B),   where there is no Al, I.e. Thulth ثُلُثَ which means one-third,  the word may  be voweled  as the word with an Al, however with the case of Rafi by Dummah  it may be voweled by adding an Alif at the end and by using something called Dummah Muqaddarh, i.e. Assumed Dummah, the reason for that is to make the pronunciation simple on the tongue. Now before I move to the dual of the word let me show you the example of its singular form as it appeared twice in 4:11:

X) فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ , Falahunna Thultha Ma Tarak,  in here the Irab of the singular word Thultha is Mubtadda, and every Mubtadda must be voweled by Dummah (oooooo) however, because the word does not have the Al (The) then we can vowel it by adding the letter Alif at the end then  assume that there is a Dummah at the last letter (Dummah Muqaddarah) i.e. Assumed Dummah

The proper understanding and translation to the above should be:

Then  they should get one-third of what the deceased left

XX) فَلأُمِّهِ الثُّلُثُ in here the Irab of the singular word Al Thulth is Mubtadda also, and  every Mubtadda must be voweled by Dummah (oooooo) however, because the word does have the Al (The) then we have to vowel it by adding real Dummah at the last letter and that is NOT Dummah Muqaddarh.

There should be no confusion regarding translating the above because no letters were added to the word, so it should be:

Then for his mother, the one-third

Let me now discuss the dual form and you should see for yourself that the dual form of any word which should e ending by AN, must be oooooo voweled by Thiboot Al Noon, i.e. the last letter N (Noon) CAN NOT BE OMMITTED, and that is what caused the confusion for those dumb who didnít bloody study the Arabic grammar from A to Z, when they thought that there is an omitted Noon in such word as it appeared in 4:11, i.e. for them, the word Thultha with an Alif at the end in 4:11, should be Thulthan, i.e two-thirds and the Noon is omitted due to the Irab, the Quran exposes their ignorance fair and square, let me prove it to you using 4:176 where the dual form of the word, which is Thulthan appeared:

Again, 4:176 is irrelevant to the discussion of the inheritance distribution to the example you have given,  because 4:176 is only talking about a condition called Kalalah, i.e. those who died and left no children  nor parents, just brothers and sisters left:

They ask you. Say: Allah answers you concerning the person who has neither parents nor offspring (Kalalah); if a man dies (and) he has no child and he has a sister, she shall have half of what he leaves, and he shall be her heir she has no child; but if there be two (sisters), they shall have the two-thirds of what he leaves; and if there are brothers, men and women, then the male shall have a portion of the two females; Allah explains to you, lest you err; and Allah is all-Knowing of every thing.

[The Quran ; 4:176]

يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَهُ أُخْتٌ فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَآ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانُواْ إِخْوَةً رِّجَالاً وَنِسَاء فَلِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ يُبَيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمْ أَن تَضِلُّواْ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ (176)

-> How clear is this man: فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ , Falahuma Al Thulthan, almost identical sentence to 4:11, let me put both on top of each other so you can compare:

--- 4:11   فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ , Falahunna Thultha Ma Tarak
--- 4:176 فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ , Falahuma Al Thulthan

The Irab of  both words: Thultha as it appeared in 4:11 and the word Al Thulthan as it appeared in 4:176 is Mubtadda, i.e. both words must be voweled with ooooo, however for dual words that end with AN, the Rafi by Dummah can not be used and instead the Rafi is by the Alif that is before the Noon and Thiboot Al Noon, i.e. the Noon must be there in addition to the Alif as clearly seen in 4:176

Therefore because the Noon is not in the word Thultha as it appeared in 4:11 then it canít be  Dual that has an omitted Noon because it is a Mubtadda that should be vowled by the Alif before the Noon and the Noon must not be ommitted EXACTLY AS SEEN IN 4:176

Before you pull your hair seeing another allegation biting the dust let me totally slam dunk ya and again by using the Quran alone:

Singular words with an added Alif in the end due to the Irab are very common in the Arabic language, here is 3 examples from many in the Quran, in each example I will show you the singular word without an Alif then the same word but with an Alif, and in both cases the word stayed SINGULAR

Let me start with the word Quran, here it is without an Alif at the end:

Alif Lam Ra. These are the signs of the Book and an obvious Quran.

[The Quran ; 15:1]

الَرَ تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ وَقُرْآنٍ مُّبِينٍ (1)

-> See قُرْآنٍ , Quran, i.e. Quran

Here it is with an Alif at the end:

A Book of which the verses are explained, an Arabic Quran for a people who know:

[The Quran ; 41:3]

كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ (3)

-> See قُرْآنًا , Qurana, i.e. Quran

In both cases the word Quran or Qurana stayed SINGULAR

Another example is the word Sullum, Ladder, here it is without an Alif at the end:

Or have they a ladder by which they listen? Then let their listener bring a clear authority.

[The Quran ; 52:38]

أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُم بِسُلْطَانٍ مُّبِينٍ (38)

-> See سُلَّمٌ , Sullum, i.e. Ladder

Here it is with an Alif at the end:

And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek a tunnel into the earth or a ladder in the heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant.

[The Quran ; 6:35]

وَإِن كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَن تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاء فَتَأْتِيَهُم بِآيَةٍ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَى فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ (35)

-> See سُلَّمًا , Sulluma, i.e. Ladder

In both cases the word Sullum or Sulluma stayed SINGULAR

And finally, the word Maqam Place, here it is without an Alif at the end:

Surely the pious are in a secure place

[The Quran ; 44:51]

إِنَّ الْمُتَّقِينَ فِي مَقَامٍ أَمِينٍ (51)

See مَقَامٍ , Maqam, i.e. Place

And here it is with an Alif at the end:

And during a part of the night, pray continuously beyond what is incumbent on you; maybe your Lord will raise you to a place of great glory.

[The Quran ; 17:79]

وَمِنَ اللَّيْلِ فَتَهَجَّدْ بِهِ نَافِلَةً لَّكَ عَسَى أَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَامًا مَّحْمُودًا (79)

See مَقَامًا , Maqama, i.e. Place

In both cases the word Maqam or Maqama stayed SINGULAR

Therefore it is clear that the word Thultha with an Alif at the end as it appeared in 4:11 means one-third

Let me now look at your example and see how the inheritance should be distributed:

1) Two daughters
2) Two Parents
3) One wife

Letís distribute the estate:

1) According to 4:11, the two daughters should take: 1/3
2) According to 4:11, the parents should take 1/6 each, i.e. 1/6 + 1/6 = 1/3
3) According to 4:12, the wife should take 1/8

Total = 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/8 = 19/24

I.e. we still have 5/24 to be distributed to whoever

That should slam dunk your allegation above for life:


_________________
And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]


Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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AhmedBahgat
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JulianCharteris wrote:
19/24 still doesn't add up to 1, Ahmed. It's still an error. Your dunk has been unslammed.


Hey J C

Let me prove to you that you are dumb:

you know why we have 5/24 to play with?, I mean sort of like a reserve


here is one of reasons why?

Imagine we have the following possibilty:

1) One daughter
2) Two Parents
3) One wife

Letís distribute the estate:

1) According to 4:11, the daughter should take: 1/2
2) According to 4:11, the parents should take 1/6 each, i.e. 1/6 + 1/6 = 1/3
3) According to 4:12, the wife should take 1/8

Total = 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/8 = 23/24

i.e. we still have 1/24 to be distributed to whoever

That should be another slam dunk, you know:



in my next comment, I will show you where that 5/24 or 1/24 should go to, and that will be the final slam dunk and the knock out

cheers
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And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]


Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JulianCharteris wrote:
That's right - 24/24 = 1. †Give the Muslim a clap for understanding basic arithmetic.
Your answers still don't add up to 1, buddy.


Hello All

As we have seen above that in two possible scenarios (two daughters, two parents, one wife) & (one daughter, two parents, one wife), we ended up with 5/24 & 1/24 of the estate left, where that money goes?, well, the answer lies in the same sura, verse no 8, letís have a look:

And when there are present at the division the relatives and the orphans and the needy, give them (something) out of it and speak to them kind words.

[The Quran ; 4:8]

وَإِذَا حَضَرَ الْقِسْمَةَ أُوْلُواْ الْقُرْبَى وَالْيَتَامَى وَالْمَسَاكِينُ فَارْزُقُوهُم مِّنْهُ وَقُولُواْ لَهُمْ قَوْلاً مَّعْرُوفًا (8)

-> See, And when there are present at the division the relatives and the orphans and the needy, give them (something) out of it , ie.. in these 2 scenarios we have 5/24 or 1/24 of the estate to be given to the relatives and the orphans and the needy if any of them is present during the division of the deceased estate, and on top of that: and speak to them kind words. , i.e. in addition to giving the relatives and the orphans and the needy that money, we should also speak to them kind words.

Letís now look at the estate distribution again in each scenario:

A) Two daughters, two parents, one wife:
Should leave us with 5/24 of the estate, therefore it goes to the relatives and the orphans and the needy

i.e. the estate total = 19/24 (first relatives) + 5/24 (the relatives and the orphans and the needy) = 24/24 = 1

B) One †daughters, two parents, one wife:
Should leave us with 1/24 of the estate, therefore it goes to the relatives and the orphans and the needy

i.e. the estate total = 23/24 (first relatives) + 1/24 (the relatives and the orphans and the needy) = 24/24 = 1

And that should be the final slam dunk:


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And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Ahmed Bahgat respected scholar who knows more than every other translator who has ever existed, can you explain to me why every translator, and I mean every translator uses the figure of 2/3 for the daughters and not 1/3 as you attempted?  In my example and 4:11, it would be 1/3 for each daughter for a total of 2/3. How on earth did you think you could pull this little substitution game off? I expected something a little more clever from you.

Quote:

004:011 Khan                Allah commands you as regards your children's (inheritance); to the male, a portion equal to that of two females; if (there are) only daughters, two or more, their share is two thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is half.

004:011 Maulana                Allah enjoins you concerning your children: for the male is the equal of the portion of two females; but if there be more than two females, two-thirds of what the deceased leaves is theirs;

004:011 Pickthal                Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance,

004:011 Rashad                GOD decrees a will for the benefit of your children; the male gets twice the share of the female. If the inheritors are only women, more than two, they get two-thirds of what is bequeathed.

004:011 Sarwar                This is a commandment from your Lord: After the payment of debts or anything bequeathed, let the male inherit twice as much as the female. If there are more than two girls, they will have two-thirds of the legacy.

004:011 Sarwar                This is a commandment from your Lord: After the payment of debts or anything bequeathed, let the male inherit twice as much as the female. If there are more than two girls, they will have two-thirds of the legacy.

004:011 Shakir                Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left,

004:011 Sherali                ALLAH commands you concerning your children; a male shall have as much as the share of two females; but if their be females only, numbering more than two, then they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased leave

004:011 Yusufali                Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance.


Now, I know you routinely dismiss translators when they don't tell you what you want to hear. So I will use plain, common sense logic to debunk your attempt in no uncertain fashion. Let's take YusuAli, since you seem to like him, but we could take any translator you choose.

Quote:

Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.



Did you see the part that I bolded? How did you miss that? So, according to you, if there are two or more daughters, they get 1/3 of the inheritance, but if there is only one daughter, she gets 1/2. Isn't that kind of backwards? But of course, if we read it like every stinking translator in the world reads it and two or more daughters get 2/3 and one daughter gets 1/2, then it makes absolute perfect sense.

SLAM DUNKED!!!  DEBUNKED !!!

Just for out viewers sake, if there are two, or even three daughters (pick whihever one you like), and two parents and one wife, and nobody else, then we get the following

2/3 + 1/3 +1/8 which adds up to one and one eighth.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL

Is that your efute to what I said?

look sir, don't you know that I know exactly what those confused say about 4:11

Oh yeh, you wanted to debate me so I come here and agree with the wrong

it is even clear that what you say that the total will be over 1 is fukin enough to refute their arses and yours

look, here is what you need to do:

you need to explain to us why the word Thultha which you say means two-thirds, is not the same letters as the word in 4:176 which is Thulthan and surely it means two-thirds?

can you do that by using the Quran alone?

LOL
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[The Quran ; 17:81]
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
LOL

Is that your efute to what I said?

look sir, don't you know that I know exactly what those confused say about 4:11

Oh yeh, you wanted to debate me so I come here and agree with the wrong

it is even clear that what you say that the total will be over 1 is fukin enough to refute their arses and yours

look, here is what you need to do:

you need to explain to us why the word Thultha which you say means two-thirds, is not the same letters as the word in 4:176 which is Thulthan and surely it means two-thirds?

can you do that by using the Quran alone?

LOL


No, YOU need to explain why every single translator translates it as 2/3, AND you need to explain the problem of the sentence that follows it. If your interpretation of 1/3 of the total inheritance for 2 or more daughters is correct, rather than 2/3 that every interpretor says, then you also have to explain the sentence right next to it, that gives a lone daughter 1/2. How are we supposed to believe that it recommends only 1/3 of the inheritance for two or more daughters, but suddenly increases the inheritance for only one daughter up to 1/2?

You saw that,the first time I said it, you stinking, unashamed liar. And you're not stupid, which means that you clearly are a stinking liar. Now, since I've been the true gentleman throughout this challenge, I will even allow you to respond to this as many times as you want, rather than limiting the amount of responses like your sneaky, squirrelly, and yet stupid little ass tried when demanding the terms of this debate in hopes of stealing some squirrelly little victory. You lose. How the hell can you possibly look in the mirror when you try this crap?? And you wonder why people find Muslims sneaky and non trustworthy? What's there to wonder about? Here it is for everybody to see, stinking liar.


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